Healthy Wealthy & Smart

Healthy Wealthy & Smart: Where Healthcare Meets Business. The Healthy Wealthy & Smart podcast, hosted by world-renowned physical therapist Dr. Karen Litzy, offers a wealth of knowledge and expertise to help healthcare and fitness professionals take their careers to the next level. With its perfect blend of clinical skills and business acumen, this podcast is a one-stop-shop for anyone looking to gain a competitive edge in today's rapidly evolving healthcare landscape. Dr. Litzy's dynamic approach to hosting combines practical clinical insights with expert business advice, making the Healthy Wealthy & Smart podcast the go-to resource for ambitious professionals seeking to excel in their fields. Each episode features a thought-provoking conversation with a leading industry expert, offering listeners unique insights and actionable strategies to optimize their practices and boost their bottom line. Whether you're a seasoned healthcare professional looking to expand your skill set, or an up-and-coming fitness expert seeking to establish your brand, the Healthy Wealthy & Smart podcast has something for everyone. From expert advice on marketing and branding to in-depth discussions on the latest clinical research and techniques, this podcast is your essential guide to achieving success in today's competitive healthcare landscape. So if you're ready to take your career to the next level, tune in to the Healthy Wealthy & Smart podcast with Dr. Karen Litzy and discover the insights, strategies, and inspiration you need to thrive in today's fast-paced world of healthcare and fitness.
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Now displaying: August, 2022
Aug 29, 2022

In this episode, Physical Therapist and Advocate Dr. Mercedes Aguirre Valenzuela, PT, DPT, talks about advocacy in physical therapy.

Today, Dr Valenzuela talks about the different types of advocacy and the latest updates in advocacy. How is grassroots advocacy different than lobbying?

Hear about APTA advocacy, making a difference as one person, and get Mercedes’ advice to her younger self, all on today’s episode of The Healthy, Wealthy & Smart Podcast.


Key Takeaways

  • Three types of advocacy:
    • Self-advocacy. Advocating for yourself.
    • Individual advocacy. Advocating for someone else.
    • Systems advocacy. Advocating for changing policies, laws, and rules.
  • “You don’t have to be a member of a certain group in order to send an email or make a phone call.”
  • “Don’t feel like you have to start on your own.”
  • “You can really make a difference, even as one person.”
  • “Get used to making mistakes, not being perfect. It’s all part of learning.”


More about Dr. Mercedes Aguirre Valenzuela

Headshot of Mercedes Aguirre ValenzuelaDr. Aguirre Valenzuela received her Doctorate in Physical Therapy from Rutgers School of Health Professions in 2020.

Her dedication to professional advocacy has led her to leadership roles in the APTA on a National and State level. She was selected to serve as an APTA Board-sponsored Centennial Scholar and worked on the APTA “PT Moves Me” national campaign.

In 2022, she began her term in the public policy and advocacy committee (PPAC) and CSM Steering Group. Within the Academy of Pediatric Physical Therapy, she is an active member and was elected to be in the Nominating Committee.

In the state of New Jersey, she is an APTA Delegate as well as a Key Contact in her district. Clinically, she currently works in the early-intervention and school-based settings.

Outside of the clinic setting, she uses social media to educate PTs/PTAs/students on how to advocate for their profession and encourage them to run for office.


Suggested Keywords

Healthy, Wealthy, Smart, Physiotherapy, Advocacy, Lobbying, Legislation, APTA, Representatives, Interventions,



Our Experiences Matter When it Comes To Advocacy

APTA Patient Action Center


To learn more, follow Dr. Valenzuela at:

LinkedIn:         Mercedes Aguirre Valenzuela

Instagram:       @theptadvocate


Subscribe to Healthy, Wealthy & Smart:


Apple Podcasts:




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Read the Full Transcript Here:


Hi, Mercedes, welcome to the podcast, I am happy to have you on and to see you again.



Nice to be here. Thank you for having me. Yes. And today we're gonna be talking about advocacy, which, in physical therapy, which I have spoken about with a lot of different people over the years. And I think it's great to get different perspectives on advocacy, especially from younger therapists, because I think it's great that you guys get involved. So my first question to you is, how did you get involved into an advocacy work for the profession? And why is it important to you?



So I graduated in 2020.



I was very even before I started PT, school, I was very into politics, legislation and public policy.



And then once I went into PT, school, I never learned about what the abt does in terms of advocacy, I felt like he kind of mesh, kind of like the two things that are really impassionate about and enjoy. And so I became more involved as a student. And then once I graduated, I wanted to create



content that was related to advocacy and explained in a very simple way. What are like the current updates going on right now? Because I feel like legislation, can we, it can be a bit intimidating for people to understand and to really get into. And I wanted to show people, what are the updates without all these extra details that they don't really want.



And that's what I've been doing thus far. And it's been really a great learning experience. When we talk about advocacy, I think that there are a couple of different types of advocacy. So could you go into a little bit more detail on the different types of advocacy, especially in the PT world?



Yeah, you're correct. So there are several definitions of advocacy.



I can just give you three of them. So number one, is self advocacy. So advocating for yourself, for example, you're advocating for a pay raise or a change in work conditions. There's individual advocacy, so advocating for someone else, for example, sending out a letter to your patient's insurance company in order to get more PT visits. Then there is systems advocacy, which is my personal favorite. And it's about changing policies, laws, rules, and how they can impact multiple people's lives. And that is more targeted at a local state or even national level.



And when you're talking about systems advocacy, is that when you know we as physical therapists, ourselves, and maybe encourage our patients to send a letter to CMS or send a letter to your Senator, advocating for whether it be you know, the stock, the Medicare cap, that was a number of years ago, things like that.



Yes. So what are you are describing right now is a grassroots movements.



So, grassroots movement is similar to how the way grass grows from the bottom up. So we are the grassroots advocates, we are at the bottom we are what legislators call constituents meeting, someone who can vote.



And we advocate for things that affect the top so the top is like policy, law, etc.



And the APTA has grassroots movements. For example, as I mentioned before with CMS, it was the hashtag fight the cut movement, which was one of them. And there are examples of different types of movements in grassroots, such as me to or love wins, black lives matter. So that's kind of how grassroots advocacy works. How is that different than lobbying? So how does that work if you can compare and contrast the two?



Sure. Let me explain what a lobbyists first perfect, though a good start. So a lobbyist is someone whose job is to build relationships and network with legislators and their staff. And that lobbyists represents an Oregon



datian So the APTA hires lobbyists. And their job is to advocate for us, they don't have to be physical therapists themselves. But we can also do the acts of lobbying, such as making phone calls to a legislator, sending emails, even having meetings.



But it's not like our job because you know, we have our own stuff to do.



Right, exactly, exactly. So you can be part of a grassroots advocacy effort, and then kind of take that into the act of lobbying not as a professional lobbyists, like you said, but like, for example, when a PTA and I know the private practice section will do this, will have groups of physical therapists go to meet with their lawmakers from their state on Capitol Hill, and also individual states will have lobby day within the state. Yes, correct.



And you don't have to be a member of a certain group and whatnot, in order to send an email write a phone call is really what you want to see change personally, or even like a small group of people don't ever feel like you have to like be a part of something big. Like, it's about what you are passionate and care about. Right. So if you're not part of the APTA you can still lobby on behalf of patients. Is that correct? Yes, I wouldn't call it necessary lobbying, but like advocating, advocating, like, you can still send a phone call, Hey, I had this patient experience and I want you to know about this and be aware about this. There's going to be a one this change in my practice, ag whatever like your state is advocating for you can still do that without being a member. Right. And how do we know as physical therapists? What is on legislative agendas, let's say for the APTA Is there a tool we can use to find out what's going on? Yes. So the APTA has an advocacy network, and you can join, it sends a newsletter,



every month, every couple of months, you can also visit that abt patient Action Center, which they have pre written emails that you can send out to your legislators, and you don't have to be a member in order to do those things. Great. So the APTA patient Action Center, and there's an app for that, right? Yes, there is a PT,



advocacy app that you can use, and you can also go on your browser as well. Right, right. So I think the big takeaways from there is there, there is an app for that.



Or, or you can go online, and you can find sort of pre written letters and things that you can send off to your senators or your congress people, whether that be at the federal or the state level. And you don't have to be an APTA member in order to have access to that. Yes, perfect, perfect. Okay, what are our current advocacy updates? What's on the table? What's on the line? What do we need to know? So for the last couple of Congresses,



there has been a bill that has been introduced called the Allied workforce diversity Act, which helps in recruiting a more diverse allied health workforce, as well as retaining those students and



just increasing the graduation rate as well, because sometimes you get these students in these programs, but they don't graduate. So that's the goal of that bill. It has not passed in the last couple of Congresses, but it was that bill was merged. Like the right the wording of it was merged into a pandemic bill, which has a high very high probability of passing. So that has been great news. That bill is called the prevent pandemics act.



And it's just to modernize the country's pandemic response, and they felt that workforce diversity was really important in it. So that's



that that's pretty huge since it was, has been a battle



To get this bill to pass for the last couple of Congresses, another one, if you're in pediatrics going to try to diversify these updates.



So there is a bill called the specialized instructional support personal services act.



You can also find it as a gross gross CIPS Act, as well, they call it hr 7219.



So this bill is going to create grant program, a Department of Education to increase partnerships between school districts and colleges to train specialized instruction support personnel. So PTS are included as that type of personnel, as well as PTAs. And they, and this is great, because, um, I was I worked at a school based physical therapist, and there is such a need for more therapists, so I could understand why they wanted to kind of increase, have more of a network between programs and school districts in order to retain the therapists.



Especially I,



you know, I saw, we're going to school way therapists, but like, I just always get emails all the time, like, we need therapists, we need therapists. And, you know, there's some kids that like I can't even see, even in the same school. So



very important for you school, PTs and PTAs. Out there, there is also a pelvic health bill that has been introduced. So moving on to pelvic health, the purpose of this bill is to educate and train health professionals on the benefits of pelvic floor physical therapy.



I think that's such a huge thing for pelvic health therapists is just a lot of people that don't know what it is. And you know, patients that go to their physicians for answers, they don't provide them the enough guidance, because they don't know that that help is out there.



So they'll be great. And the bill will also help to educate postpartum women on the importance of pelvic floor examinations and physical therapy.



And what it is and how to obtain a pelvic physical therapy examination, which would help increase access. And this bill was actually worked by representatives from a BT pelvic health, which is pretty amazing that, you know, Pts helped in creating this bill.



Yeah, and that was introduced into the house already are in committee. It was introduced, like into the house. Yep. Fabulous. Yeah. Anything else on the legislative docket? I can talk about a federal agency. Yeah, go for it. Update from the NIH. Okay. So the ABA is part of the disability rehab research coalition. And they some, which is occupational therapists are part of it, a lot of associations are a part of it. And they submitted a comment to the NIH requesting them to consider designating people with disabilities as a health disparity population, which I didn't think that they weren't. So I was really surprised by that. And this is just so important, because for the purposes of federal research, for this minority group, and it will develop and inform critical policy solutions to reduce and eliminate health disparities for people with disabilities. So I don't know the current update, but it is great that it is being brought up at this time. Perfect. All right, so we've got allied workforce diversity act. We've got the HR hr 7219, which was for school based PTS, and that was a really, really long



name for that bill. Yeah. And then we've got the pelvic health bill. So all those those three bills plus an update from the NIH. And if people go to the advocacy APTA PT Action Center, they should be able to find more information on that on those bills and how to contact their Congress person, correct?



Yes, perfect. So



in turn



terms of like federal agencies, if you're talking about the CDC, NIH, that's not necessarily something you just send an email to.



But for other legislations, yes, you can find pre written emails in regards to that. Excellent. All right. Well, that is a great overview of where we are right now. And current current advocacy updates. Thank you so much. Now, next question. What advice do you have for students and younger physical therapists, new career physical therapists who might want to get into advocacy? But maybe they feel like, Oh, I just don't know enough? Or I'm too new. What do you say to that?



Well, I will say contact me because I love



going to students sake meetings at different states and talking about advocacy, I have been to a few SEC meeting, so contact me and I will gladly, you know, present and help you guys out in any way possible. But also, when I was a student, I was really interested in to advocacy. And there wasn't much going on around in my program student lead wise. So I contacted my trusted professor, which is someone that I looked at as a mentor, and they really helped and guided me. So don't feel like going to have to start on your own, you know, find a professor that you trust and you feel is kind of already involved in advocacy in some level.



And they will help you out as well. Perfect. And who was that professor for you? Let's give them a shout out. It was Dr. Mike Rella. Ah,



yes, yeah. She just retired, right? Yes, he did. Yeah, that's a loss for sure. Yeah. But yeah, she really helped me out a lot. Oh, amazing. Yeah, she's a nice, she's a nice lady, for sure. Well, it's great that you had that professor to help guide you. And I think that's great advice for students and, and new graduates is reach out to those professors, because they, they can really help to guide you through advocacy, and through a whole bunch of other things as well. And they can also follow you on social media. Right. So what is your what is your social media handle? And where can people find you? At the PT advocate? Perfect, and that's on on Instagram? Perfect. That's the gram. Just the gram for now. That is great. And is that the best way for people to reach out to you they can just slide into your DM. Vic about advocacy only please?



Yes, or piece, you know, yeah, yeah, or pediatric care. Perfect. Perfect. All right. So what do you want people to take away from this conversation? If you can kind of distill it down to a couple of points? What would that be? I know, sometimes we can feel that we're just one person, one change can we make? And I know I feel that way. Sometimes too. Even though I have this advocacy, Instagram, sometimes I'm just like, all the stuff that's going on in the world's I walk in Mercedes do what can I even do about this, but you can really make a difference even as one person, that phone call that email that you send, even just reading about it and being aware and talking to colleagues about it or your patients about it, increasing a word that awareness of that can still be great and can still make a change. Don't feel like you are alone. There's a whole Association backing you up in this, and it's all for, you know, to progress our profession. So don't feel alone. And don't feel that like you can't not make a change because you can and your voice is really important. I love it. And last question, it's when I ask everyone, knowing where you are now in your life and your career. What advice would you give to your younger self? I would say get used to making mistakes not being perfect.



Because when I was a student everytime made a mistake, I was like, oh proceeds How could you do that? That's horrible scar for life. And as a new grad, I make a mistake every other day, every day. So just get used to it saltwater learning. Yeah, and I can say as someone who's been out for over 20 years, I make mistakes every day, too. Yeah. So it's never it's never ending we'll have mistakes and that's okay. Because like you said, you'll constantly learn from them. Thank you so much, Mercedes, for coming on and talking about advocacy. I love your passion. And I think it's great to see new graduates out there and making a difference. So thank you for that. And thank you for coming on. Thank you



for having me. My pleasure, everyone. Thanks so much for tuning in. Have a great couple of days and stay healthy, wealthy and smart.



Thanks for listening. And don't forget to leave us your questions and comments at podcast dot healthy, wealthy

Aug 22, 2022
In this episode, The Word Magician and Bestselling Ghostwriter, Crystal Adair-Benning, talks about effective copywriting. Today, Crystal talks about ways to improve your copy, pleasure copy versus trigger copy, and when to hire a copywriter. What is copy? Hear about the eight levels of perspective and belief, using love letter language, and get Crystal’s advice to her younger self, all on today’s episode of The Healthy, Wealthy & Smart Podcast. Key Takeaways “The best copy meets our clients where they’re at, so we can take them where they need to go.” “The world is triggering enough. We don’t need to see it in our copy.” “Your clients will tell you exactly what to write.” “Follow your zone of genius.” More about Crystal Adair-Benning Crystal Adair-Benning is the Word Magician, Story Supercharger, Copywriter & Ghostwriter for rebels, misfits and world-changing humans. She is best known for being not known at all. A secret weapon amongst successful entrepreneurs who covet her Quantum Copy Method - combining the science of writing with the spirituality of creativity. A multiple NYTimes Bestselling ghostwriter and former highly sought-after luxury event planner, Crystal finds joy in being an Intuitive Creative, digital nomad - free to explore the globe with her husband, dog and laptop. If you really want to know Crystal, here are some fun facts: - She never leaves home without her passport. - She saves trees with tech (her Remarkable is everything)! - She was truly embarrassed to call herself an empath for years and hid her genius because of it. - She met and married her hubbend (husband/boyfriend) in a month... because she was a smitten kitten. - She believe in LOVE above all else and will happily destroy the bro-marketing patriarchy word by word. Suggested Keywords Healthy, Wealthy, Smart, Copywriting, Beliefs, Perspective, Communication, Conversion, Storytelling, Resources FREE Copy Workshop. To learn more, follow Crystal at: Website: Instagram: @wordmagiccopywriting Facebook: Word Magic Copywriting Twitter: @WordMagicCopy Subscribe to Healthy, Wealthy & Smart: Website: Apple Podcasts: Spotify: SoundCloud: Stitcher: iHeart Radio: Read the Full Transcript Here: 00:05 Welcome to the healthy, wealthy and smart podcast where healthcare meets business with your host me, Dr. Karen Litzy. And just as a reminder, the information in this podcast is for entertainment purposes only, and is not to be used as personalized medical advice. Enjoy the show. 00:28 Hello, everyone, and welcome to the healthy, wealthy and smart Podcast. Today we've got a great podcast, which walks you through how to connect, convert and catalyze conversation through copy. And yes, this means how to get more conversions how to possibly make more money with your copy. So to bring us through today's episode, I'm really happy to have crystal Adair Bening, a word magician story supercharger, copywriter, ghostwriter for rebels, misfits and world changing humans. She is best known for being not known at all a secret weapon among successful entrepreneurs who covered her quantum copy method combining the science of writing with the spirituality of creativity, a multiple New York Times Best Selling ghost writer and formerly highly sought after luxury event planner, Crystal finds joy and being an intuitive creative digital nomad free to explore the globe with her husband, dog and laptop. So I met crystal a couple of months ago at Selena Sue's mastermind, and I am like in love with this woman, she is so good. She will walk you through what copy means how to make it your own and how to talk to your customers. Now, aside from all of this, wonderfulness, and you'll hear throughout the podcast on August, the last week of August, I think on the 31st She is having a free three hour master class word magician copywriting workshop. You guys, it's free. She's going to take you through everything. So you can head over to podcast dot healthy, wealthy Go to the show notes for today's episode and click on for her free three hour workshop. You can also go to word magic And you'll sign up it's like a waitlist, you'll sign up for the waitlist and you guys three free hours with a copywriting expert. I know I am no copywriting expert. So if you want to have better copy for your website, your sales page, your funnels, your social media, check out her free class, that is going to be the last week of August either the 30th or the 31st. Otherwise, enjoy today's episode. Hey, Crystal, welcome to the podcast. I'm excited to have you on today to talk all about copy. So thank you so much for coming on. My pleasure. Thank you for having me. Yeah, I'm excited. This is definitely an area where it is a weakness of mine. And dare I say weakness of a lot of people certainly in my profession of physical therapy, and I'm sure you hear that all the time. Not like that's anything new. But before we go on, I want you to define what copy is. 03:30 Oh, good question. So copy is literally the words that you use to market your business. So it can be your website, your emails, your social media, and ebook you use a book you write. It could be literally like an ad that you run on social media might be copy. So copy is all of those things. We think about the words that come out of our mouth when we're talking to our clients. But when we put it down on paper, it becomes coffee because it's something that somebody can refer to us. Perfect. And how important is that for business? Let's let's get into this. Essential, right. Super important, super important. And here's another question that might seem like a dumb question. But how can copy be used to make a connection with your audience maybe make that sale? What is the purpose? So when we write copy, the best copy that we write is naturally about us. It's for the humans that we're writing for. So I teach a lot of times about the idea of it being a love letter. So if you think about the average client that emails you and maybe they email you and say, Hey, I've got this problem and my back's sore and this and that and I need I'm struggling with this and how do I do it? You might immediately hit reply and you say yeah, but when appointment in my calendar, very good, right? Like that could be an option. What if we instead decided to treat it like coffee? 05:00 and use the love letter principle Love Letter language and say, Hey, I'm really sorry that your back hurts, that's awful. I know how challenging that can be. And we definitely want to take care of you, here's a link to my website, I would recommend we get you in within the next six to seven days, because that's probably when the pain is going to feel worse. And when we have the most opportunity to fix it. By simply adding words to the copy, you're still getting across the exact same message. But there's a level of I've got you that we feel in a love letter, if you think to honor the love letter you've ever received, what's the underlying tone, it's your magic, you're amazing, I love you, and I got you. And so if you can impart that into the language that you're reading, whether it's a website and email, your social media copy a book, your audience literally feels that vibration, and it starts to pull them in, because suddenly they not feel what they feel seen. They feel taken care of supported, they feel comfortable with you, they're willing to say, Hey, I may not know this human yet, but they're inviting me into their space, they're welcoming me. And that feels good. And so they will actually move toward you instead of against you. So that's one of the ways that I would highly recommend you use it. Yeah. And in the physical therapy, I'm a physical therapist. So in physical therapy, and in healthcare, I would say, a lot of people, when they're coming to see us, they're in a point where they're feeling vulnerable, where they may be in pain, they may not be at their best. And so I like how you describe it as a love letter, because we're trying to tell them like it's okay for you to be open with us. Do you have any other examples of how we might be able to convey that to someone who's feeling maybe at their worst? Yes, so absolutely. So what we need to do first and foremost, and this is where the psychology kind of takes over. So my work is a lot of science needs spiritual to kind of combine it all together and create what I call word magic. And this is the science piece of it. So each of your clients already comes in, they have a belief that they currently believe, right, they're living in a system, they have an understanding of the world around them, they have a perspective of their values of the beliefs that they believe in. So on a very basic level, because we've got a short window of time, I'm gonna give you the there's like eight levels. So I'm gonna give you the overview. So number one, we're basically survivors, these are babies. Oftentimes, if we're in a really traumatic situation, if you're a refugee, for example, if you're homeless, you might become this person, your whole goal is to get your basic needs met and actually survive, right? Your belief is just I need to survive period. In Level two, I call this cult cohesion, who ever desire to fit in, we're learning all about rules and how we fit into society, how we fit in with our families, how we fit in with our communities. These are the reasons we call it a cult cohesion is because often, if you've ever joined a call, not all of us have. But if you've been part of a cult, there's a very strong belief system around the rules of that cult and fitting into that cult people often don't leave because they're going to be excommunicated, right. And so that's kind of the second level, it's not real bonded Level. Level three, we go up and these are black sheets. Think teenagers, right? When we're teenagers think of that angst, right? But we're recognizing that we have special gifts, and we're different than those around us. For the black sheep of our family, you'll often hear that we're searching for our gifts and our talents and level three, so teenagers most often, but you'll also see it in a lot of musicians, artists, people that really don't fit the norm. Lady Gaga is a perfect example of a value level three or belief three, believe four, we move into family rules. So we return from I'm so special, I'm unique. I'm a I'm a black sheep and we move we come back to family. You'll often find mom's fit here really well. If you work with a lot of moms, you'll hear about family is the most important thing. And they're very selfless. They're very giving their marbles, right. They believe in process systems and steps if you're a strong family person, if you work in government, military, religion, schools, they all fit into this rule kind of category. Then we move into five, if you're an entrepreneur, like many of the PTS on here, maybe you are an achievement architect is what I call you. You're entrepreneurial, you're driven for money and achievement. You know, we associate words like hustle faster, stronger, easier, better. We're seeking a goal we're very goal oriented in this level. Grant Cardone, Gary Vee are examples that I can think of that are very achievement oriented. Then we go into level six, level six, we go from being very self motivated and as achievements to 10:00 Being very world motivated, we often have achieved a lot in our lives and fives were high achievers, who suddenly recognize that there has to be something else to this. We can't just achieve for the sake of achieving and doing it for ourselves, there has to be more to this. So we often come into spirit at this point. I kind of joke sometimes that this is often the people you'll find in Mexico doing Ayahuasca retreats, or going to Peru, and, you know, trying to find themselves trying to find God or their version of God. They often turn away from financial achievement at this point. So we achieved so much that we're like, I don't have to keep working for money anymore. And now we turn to like, what is spiritual like sound for us? John Lennon, Nelson Mandela are great examples of this. They're people who achieved a lot in their lives. And ultimately, we're like, it's not about the money. It's about how can I give back in my community? How can I impact then we go into sevens, sevens move again, from spiritual tools, it's about everybody. Sevens come back and go, well hold up. I haven't the money that I gave it away, and I found God. But now, why can't I find God and make money? 11:07 Why is that not a possibility. So they really want to make money, certainly with money, they really want to make money. And they want to have impact. They believe that they can do both. Tony Robbins, Oprah Russell Brand great examples of these humans. They're the ones that really have like, we have it all, and we're going to give it away in the celebration, it's affordable. So they're really trying to do better things with their money. And their opportunities and visions, number eights, these are harder to define. So the eights are the cosmic connections, these are Ascended Masters, these are the people that know and understand that we are living in quantum existence on multiple timelines, sometimes all at the same time, and that every single thing we do is affected by somebody else. So I'm in my hands. And this affects somebody else down the road, I write on an email, and like millions of people can be affected by the email I write. That's where the Cosmic Connection is. So what's important here, when we talk about making connection, and how does coffee really convert is, there's two things you need to understand what is the belief bubble that your client currently sits in? What is the belief bubble that you as the owner setting. And then just for bonuses, your business also sits in a belief bubble, your business has a belief system that it abides by, if you know those three things, you can write incredible copy, because we write to the client, and not to ourselves, which means that typically, so if I'm a five, if I'm a high powered entrepreneur, and I'm working predominantly with moms, and dads who are burnt out, they're family focused, but they are given at all for their kids, and there's nothing left for themselves. I need to write to them, I need to speak their language. I need to know how they speak about the problem, that they're experiencing, how they're experiencing it. And I need to reverberate those words back to them in the copy my language and their language may be different. We know this, right? A client may have a presenting problem they walk into your office with, and they use words like, you know, my back's sore, or my back's tender, or I can't lift my kids. And you might know that it's partially about those muscles in those numbers. But there might also be an emotional attachment that you have to deal with, there might be a traumatic injury that you have to deal with, or long term problem that you're trying to support, you know that the presenting problem is not the real problem. It's just what they're noticing. 13:47 We need to speak to the thing they're noticing, not to the thing they actually need help with what when we do that work is when they're actually our client, they trust us, they know that we understand them by speaking their language. And then the real work can be done. It's not lying to your client. It's called meeting them where they're at. So the best coffee meets our clients where they're at so we can take them where they need to go. Yeah, that was great. I took a lot of notes there. And so what I'm hearing the bottom line is know yourself, your business, your the values of your business, so that you're coming from a solid foundation, and then really understand your potential clients and really get deep into who they are, what they need. Maybe what they're fearful of what they like, dislike so that you can write to them from a solid from your own solid base. Exactly. You're using their language, your solid base is where they want to go. 14:53 We typically work with clients that are a belief below us or are just like during the same 15:00 We bubble but they're just, they're just underneath us in our beliefs, we have a belief and then we have a neurology. So what often happens is, for example, I tend to sit as I work with a lot of fives I work with a lot of entrepreneurs are really kind of trying to kill it in their business. But if I look at the five, their neurology is already in sixth, they're already starting to think more spiritual and about there has to be more to this, I'm thinking about impact. So they've got higher level neurology. But the problem is, their client is sitting in a poor potentially wanting to become a five, I have to meet them in the floor in the language where they first meet me. So the language where your client first meet to, in case you haven't figured it out yet, typically, it's your website and your social media, that's where your client first meets you. So it's super, super important that we speak their language, not necessarily our language, when we first meet them, once we get to know them, once they're involved in our processes a little bit more, once they've been part of things, I might offer a book that's more in my believable mind language for them. Because I know that they're going to work with me for a little bit, and we're going to get them there. But to start with, I have to meet them where they're at, they're not going to understand me, coaches are the worst for this, I'll use a great coaching example. Coaches will say things like I do quantum timeline therapy, or I'm somebody who does quantum releases or breakthroughs. Your client has no idea what that I was just gonna say. I don't know what that means at all. Exactly. And every coach who who does those things goes well die know what that means. But your client who has never worked as a coach has no clue what we're talking about. The same thing happens in PT, right? You have things that you know what this specific thing is, but if you said those words to client, a client, we go, excuse me, what? What is that? So we need to go okay, hold on to this, this complicated process that we do? How do we reframe it in a way that our clients can understand it? How, what is it in their life, and if it's as simple as a massage that releases your back pain, and allows you to functionally lift your children again, then that's the way you explain it, instead of a, you know, repetitive injury release tension system, whatever the whatever the phrase would be a BT, clearly, I'm not a PT, but you want to break it down to what are they saying? And how is this gonna relate to them. And the best tool you can do is if we go back to that love letter, languaging, rather than trigger them by being like, you're this problem. And this problem and this problem, if we then speak into the power of what they can create, by doing the work with us, that's better. So if I can say, I'm going to create the ability for you to keep up with your kids, lift them longer, have more energy and stamina to like, go three rounds in the bedroom at night, if you want. Whatever it is, if I use the language of what the outcome of working with you is, versus just the trigger of why they showed up in the first place, they're going to be much more likely to stay on board. The world is triggering enough. We don't need to see it in our coffee, we do need to show them that we understand them we feel their pain. But what we need to express more often than not, is what is the outcome of working with me, if you work with me, I will do X, you will feel x times better, you will have the ability to do X, Y and Zed that you couldn't do before. That is much more compelling than simply saying stop hoarding. 18:43 Right, right. 100%. Yeah, or just try and relax. 18:50 Right? That's another one that we hear a lot. It's like, never in the history of the world. Has someone relaxed by someone just saying we'll help you relax? Yeah, it's like, it's so like, What are you talking about? Is the ultimate oxymoron, right? Like, tell somebody the rocks and they're immediately gonna be like, 19:09 yeah, yeah. 19:13 I catch myself doing it too. Like, my like, word for kind of my mouth. And I'm like, Oh, that's not going to help the situation at all great. Just put in our coffee, we have a chance to be really clear and to really understand the belief system or climate, the understanding are going through. So if you're telling a busy mom to just relax, she's probably not going to be too receptive. However, if you tell her that she's going to be able to appreciate the moments with her family more by doing this work. That's a much more enticing and appealing approach to her. Yeah, no, that's a great example. Thank you for that. What advice do you have for folks who are trying to get there, whether it's their website 20:00 their social media or wherever copy may land. What advice do you have for them? If they're like, I just have no idea what to do here, like I? I am like, because, again, you'll hear again and again, I'm not a writer, I don't know what to say. So what advice do you have for people in that situation? 20:23 I mean, of course, the selfish thing to say here is, right, aside from hiring, right, right. Right from that, though, that the thing that I would say is this. Start with the understanding of the belief bubble that somebody's in, start by really listening to our clients, how do they talk about their presenting problem and mimic it back to them, the easiest thing you can do is your clients will tell you exactly what to write, because they're already telling you in clinical sessions with you, every single time, what is my problem? literally read it verbatim. And keep yourself a list. Oh, how many times did I hear mom say I can't look my kids. That's probably a problem that they're really interested in getting sorted out. How many times did I hear people say, I struggle to bend over and lift boxes? Okay, maybe I need to focus on the ability like functional movement and the ability to lift things. Functional Movement is jargon speak for us. But for client, the ability to lift boxes with ease? Are you kidding me, that's a great tool to start listening to your clients. If you want to write better. The second thing that you're going to do is honestly start following and paying attention to your numbers. How many of our emails get opened, how many things get clicks, how many people visit your website? How many people leave your website? How many people show up? Or how many people get your email and you get snarky responses back? Right? If you're finding yourself in a situation where a lot of your emails are short and snarky, you probably have a problem with writing love letters, you might want to check that out. But if we look at the numbers, the numbers don't lie. The numbers tell us important to the problem among our clients will literally tell us how to fix it. For me, there's two places I would always start, I would start updating your website, making your website in the belief bubble and language of your client. And I would have a look at your emails and see if there's a way that even with two or three sentences, you can make them more loving, kind and allow your client to be seen. And if you do those simple, two things are usually simple. But I obviously no, it's not recorded. But if you seriously take those things, and implement some minor changes to things, watch, your clients start to shift their ability to work with you their ability to show up to start being more vulnerable with you speaking more openly with you and really deeply connecting with you. And from there, they'll tell you exactly what to write. And if all else fails, then you come to somebody like me, and we start talking about the strategy behind it. But the simple solution to start emails and website, start there. I love it. And I love 23:19 that you said when you're listening to your clients, just jot stuff down, like make a list of things you're hearing over and over again, and then just put that on your website, or put that into an email. Yeah, I mean, it seems like a no brainer. But like, Why? Why did I not think of this? 23:41 And most of us don't, right? Like it goes in one way or the other. You might be doing an intake with a client and hearing them and they're talking about struggling to pick up their kids and you're busy reading, you know, they've got a lumbar problem or a back pain issue. You're putting it into your language, if you simply wrote down exactly what they said a few times over and you don't even have to do this for long like I'm talking like, take two or three days, like six or six or eight clients even and you'll start to hear repetitive patterns in your clients. You probably intuitively know then you've just turned them into PT speak. 24:18 So take them out of PT speak and put them back into client speak change site on your website. Make sure that your website itself is written like a love letter that it allows your client to feel seen and valued and heard. Give them the safe space it's not about you it's about them. So if your website has a lot of eyes in it, change it to WE ARE THEY ARE you it is not about you it is about them. So the number one tool after listening to your client is making a buy bomb. If your website currently is all about you and when you do, 24:50 flip the script, make it about them. 24:53 You are going to feel so much better when we work on your ability to 25:00 Let your kids know so much better than I help moms be able to lift their kids. Because that feels so impersonal. 25:09 Right? It was wanting to put that personality back into that love back into it. So if you do those couple of things, you're immediately going to start to see incremental conversion challenges where things are not challenging, but opportunities for you, where you're going to get more conversion. And then the next step is, of course, going in with a deeper strategy around how do we build all of your pieces together so that it's always about the client. It's always spoken from love. It's ethical, crappy, meaning that it's not triggering, it's really about pleasure for the person. So pleasure copy versus triggering copy is a great tool for people to be able to utilize. So pleasure copy is all about calling people in by giving them the real results and the inspiration that they're going to receive by doing the work with you. Because first and foremost, when we're purchasers, we want to know, what can you do for me? Not what's the like physical aspect, not the, like manipulation of my body, not the tools around mindset, we don't care about that stuff. It's not the how we're gonna get there. And so what am I gonna get? How am I going to do that? So that's what somebody actually wants. So I would say if you can go into pleasure, copy and writing pleasure, so don't trigger them, instead, inspire them, talk to them in Love Letter language, and speak in their belief system, not your own keys to converting and actually catalyzing conversation, which is truly the key to converting a man I mean, such great tips. I like I said before, I've been taking so many notes and thinking about Oh, does my website do this is it so now I'm gonna have to go do an an edit of my website. So thanks a lot for adding a little more work on to the plate. No, I'm just joking. It's good work. It's good work. It's good work. This was great. What? What would you like the audience to take away from this conversation concerning copy and how we can connect and how we can convert? And ultimately, because if we have a business, I mean, we do want to make money, right? We're not all in the world motivated, where, where we've made a whole bunch of money, and now we can give it away. But we do want to make money. And we do want to make an impact. So what what are the things that you want the audience to take away from? So I think the first thing is, know your beliefs. Know the beliefs of your client, know the beliefs of your business, right to your clients beliefs. First, knowing your beliefs is helpful, because it will, it will show you what the gap is between your beliefs and your clients beliefs. And that's important to understand because it's often about jargon or lingo, keep that out of your copy, speak to the pleasure, talk about the results you're going to create for their client and inspire them to live a life better than they currently have, by doing this work with you speak into that more than you speak into their pain, right? We're the life like literally triggering enough right now. Stop focusing on pain, instead, start focusing on the pleasure that they're gonna get working with you. And I finally move into love letter language. So love letter language is just taking a couple extra and this is rare for a copywriter to say, but add a couple sentences, show them that they're seen, show them that you hear them, allow them to be vulnerable with you by asking great questions that encourage that vulnerability from them. And you really utilize that and if all else fails after that, Kelly copywriter, that's what we're here for. But you can do this, it is completely possible to do your copy in a way that is fully aligned and a way that is loving to your client and immediately get to conversion. We only opt out by working with copywriters, but start doing it on your own. Everybody should do it on their own first and call us second. And speaking of hiring a copywriter where can people find you if they have questions or they want to hire you as their copywriter? Yes, sir. Absolutely. word magic. is my website. That's the best way to get a hold of me send me a smoke signal or a text message or whatever from Yeah, otherwise find me on Instagram at word magic, copywriting. Pretty simple. I'm always around. I've always got a free class coming up too. So there's usually a waitlist on my website to get into my next free class where I teach. And I talk about specifically how would you combine these things? And how do you how do you put it all together. So if you're interested in learning, you can always take one of my free classes. And then if you just want to hire me we can go that route as well. But I love it when people simply connect. And at the very least, I promise you if you sign up for my email newsletter, I send tips and tricks all the time. So if you 30:00 Want to do it on your own in small bits and pieces? That's a great way to perfect and we'll have links to everything crystal just said at podcast at healthy, wealthy under this episode, so one link, little quick click, and we'll take you to everything. So take her free class, follow her on Instagram and get the newsletter. Okay, Crystal last question. And so when I asked everyone, and that is knowing where you are now in your life and in your career, what advice would you give to your younger self? 30:37 Ooh, juicy questions, I would tell my younger self to follow your zone of genius first. And what I mean by that is I actually spent two decades as a live event professional. I was always a writer, I was a writer from the top, I could write, I won awards for it, I always wanted to write. And then I followed the money. And I wanted to advance and I kind of let my copywriting and my writing kind of slide a little bit. I mean, I was reading New York Times, bestsellers, and 16. Like it was brilliant. And I let it slide because the money was better in advance. And I slipped in and eventually became a zone of excellence. And I did it for two decades. But there was always a little piece of me that felt unfulfilled because I wasn't just a writer. And that's what I wanted. 31:29 And when I left the bounce, and just started writing, everything got easy. It was like I hit the easy button on my zone of genius and cerebral doing work, I was super passionate about stuff I loved. I got to you know, work in strategy and marketing, because copy is a lot about strategy and humans. So a lot of the work I did in advance actually magically comes into play and copy. But working in my zone of genius. I think from the get go, I would have changed everything for me, I would have felt so much more fulfilled, so much younger, and so much more let up by this work. 32:05 So yeah, I would have told my younger self to follow your love of writing. Follow your zone of genius first. What great advice crystal, thank you so much for coming on to the podcast and sharing all these tips and tricks to help us write better copy, whether that's on our website or our newsletters or our social media. So thank you so much. You're so welcome. Thank you and everyone. Thanks so much for listening. Have a great couple of days and stay healthy, wealthy and smart. 32:38 Thanks for listening. And don't forget to leave us your questions and comments at podcast dot healthy, wealthy
Aug 15, 2022

In this episode, Physical Therapist and Founder of Redefine Health Education, Dr. Katie O’Bright, talks about the role of the physical therapist in primary care.

Today, Dr O’Bright talks about direct-access in outpatient clinics, patient satisfaction with teams-based approaches, and the sustainability of physical therapy as a profession. What is the primary care physical therapist?

Hear about billing as a direct-pay PT, learning from ED PTs, and Redefine Health, all on today’s episode of The Healthy, Wealthy & Smart Podcast.


Key Takeaways

  • “The primary care team is a team.”
  • “The more we can get integrated into teams, the better.”
  • “I don’t think that our profession, the way that we’re doing things, is sustainable at all.”
  • “Every health professional has a role in lifestyle intervention.”
  • “Do we really know, for different pathologies, what views and types of modalities and studies are actually required in order to effectively rule out a condition?”
  • “If we can do anything to make our population more healthy, and to make other healthcare professionals see our value, then do it.”
  • “The more I learned about the things that I didn’t know, the better clinician and person I became.”
  • “Always have listening ears.”
  • “Never drink the Kool-Aid. It’s not a good idea.”


More about Dr. Katie O’Bright

Dr. Katie O’Bright, PT, DPT, OCS is a residency-trained physical therapist and educator who has spent much of her career in multidisciplinary primary care settings.

She started her career as an active duty Army PT where she worked in a team-based Soldier Centered Medical Home. Since then, she has worked in multidisciplinary care settings in academic health systems and private practices, including oncology care. She also serves as adjunct faculty in several DPT programs, teaching foundations in primary care, oncology, musculoskeletal and gross anatomy.

In 2020, Dr. O’Bright founded Redefine Health Education, an education & consulting company with the mission of getting more physical therapists competent and prepared for work in first contact, team-based care settings, starting with primary care. She is the lead instructor in Foundations for the Primary Care PT and contributes to musculoskeletal imaging curriculum.

She currently lives in the Chicago metro with her husband & 2 sons, enjoys being outdoors & Buffalo Bills football.


Suggested Keywords

Healthy, Wealthy, Smart, Physiotherapy, Education, Teams, Sustainability, Primary Care, Redefine Health, Lifestyle Medicine,



Chicago PC Course (Aug 27-28).

MSK Imaging Certification (Starts Sept. 7) - 2-hour modules, 1x/month for 9 months or online self-study.

Use “HWSPodcast2022” for $50 Discount.


To learn more, follow Dr. O’Bright at:


Cell:                 312-772-2322


Facebook:       Redefine Health Ed

Instagram:       @redefinehealthed

Twitter:            @RedefineConEd

TikTok:            @redefinehealthed

LinkedIn:         Redefine Health Education


Subscribe to Healthy, Wealthy & Smart:


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Read the Full Transcript Here: 


Welcome to the healthy, wealthy and smart podcast. Each week we interview the best and brightest in physical therapy, wellness and entrepreneurship. We give you cutting edge information you need to live your best life healthy, wealthy and smart. The information in this podcast is for entertainment purposes only and should not be used as personalized medical advice. And now, here's your host, Dr. Karen Litzy.



Hey everybody, welcome back to the podcast. I am your host, Karen Litzy. And in today's episode, we are going to be talking about the role of physical therapy as the primary care P T. So what does this mean? This means that if physical therapists being first point of contact for the patient into the medical system, and what do physical therapists need to know in order to be the primary care PT? So to talk us through this topic, I'm really happy to welcome Dr. Katie o bright. She is a residency trained physical therapist and educator who has spent much of her career multidisciplinary primary care settings. She started her career as an active duty Army PT, where she worked in a team based soldier centered medical home. Since then, she has worked in multidisciplinary care settings and academic health systems and private practices, including oncology care. She also serves as adjunct faculty and several DPT programs, teaching foundations in primary care, oncology, musculoskeletal and gross anatomy. In 2020, Dr. Albright founded redefine health education and education and consulting company with the mission of getting more physical therapists competent and prepared for work in the first contact team based care settings starting with primary care. She's the lead instructor and foundations for primary care PT and contributes to musculoskeletal imaging curriculum. She currently lives in the Chicago Metro with her husband and two sons and enjoys being outdoors. And as a Buffalo Bills fan. We'll let it slide because you know, I'm a Philadelphia Eagles fan. But I want to thank Katie for coming on. We've got a lot of resources on podcast at healthy, wealthy And she's actually giving giving healthy, wealthy and smart listeners a $50 discount for courses at redefine health education. So you can use h w s podcast 2022 for the $50 discount. So big thanks for Katie for coming on talking about primary care, physical therapy. Hi, Katie. Welcome to the podcast. I'm happy to have you join us today. Thank you so much. It's really honestly a pleasure and a privilege to be on your show. I've been a longtime listener. So this has been awesome. Oh, that's so nice. Thank you for that. And today, we're going to talk about the role of the physical therapist in primary care, which for those of us like myself, who's been in the profession for quite quite many, many years, I feel like this concept of the primary care PT



is on the newer side, depending on maybe what part of the country or the world you're practicing in. So before we get into the meat of the interview, I would love for you to define what is the primary care physical therapist? Yeah, that's a really good question. And I think that you're going to get a different answer from, you know, you'll get 10 different answers from 10 different people that you ask, but the way that I really like to think about it, and even my definition has evolved a bit over time, but the way that I like to think about it is



a lot of people think that primary care PT just equals you know, direct access or first contact or seeing a patient without a referral. But as I've learned more about what it what it is to be a primary care provider, I think that it has a lot more to do with being a being able to comprehensively assess a patient across all different specialty areas. So it's not just you know, you are an advanced neuro musculoskeletal professional. It's you're able to assess and effectively manage the functional needs of a patient, whether they have primarily orthopedic complaints, or primarily, you know, maybe they're a pediatric patient, or they primarily her, you know, dealing with some other non communicable diseases like diabetes and hypertension. You as the primary care PT are able to understand what it all of those how all of those systems play into their functional needs. And you're able to provide guidance on the management in conjunction and in sync with other health care professions.



Smells like the primary care physician. But you're able to effectively manage a variety of different conditions, not necessarily just their orthopedic or just their neuro or just their pelvic floor.



So that's kind of what my definition of primary care PT has come to evolve into. And I feel like my colleagues at the primary care sing would probably agree with me. Yeah, that seems reasonable. Have you ever heard of people saying, Wait, primary care? pte. Isn't that overstepping our license? Or isn't that going beyond what we should be doing? How do you respond to that? Well, I respond to it this way.



I think that pride, the primary care team is a team. And you can have a primary care physician or PA nurse practitioner. And they're typically in most cases, and especially in the United States, you will have a primary care physician and they'll also have a team of, of nurses, maybe they'll have a clinical pharmacist. And oftentimes that doesn't include an in house co located or, you know, maybe not co located but down the hallway, PT. But I think a lot of health systems are starting to see the advantages of having a variety of healthcare professionals that can be first contact. So for example,



the there there's physicians that can build primary care codes like e&m Primary Care codes, nine, nine series codes, and then there's non physician professionals that can build those codes as well. And that's limit that's not not just limited to pas and nurse practitioners, it also is encompassing behavioral health professionals, midwives, clinical pharmacy to a certain extent, and I think you're gonna start to see more and more primary care teams functioning as a team, which also includes a physical therapist that can contribute to the, you know, the, like managing the patient's functional needs, and everybody contributes to what component they need to contribute to.



Yeah, and that's interesting, you bring up the code. So normally, the physical therapists are billing under the nine sevens, usually. So in this case, if you are working with someone within their insurance system, and you're not a direct pay physical therapist, how do you bill for the services? Or? Yeah,



great question. So I actually just connected with Rick, Glenda last week, and I want to talk to him a lot more about this. So I actually have some, some meetings arranged, or I'm reaching out to plan some meetings with him to consult on that specific topic, because the health systems that I have worked with, or that I've consulted with, they're all doing different things. Some of them are billing nine, seven series code codes within the primary care setting. But a lot of this over the past couple of years, since I've been really into this space, a lot of these clinics have not received the feedback from their billing and finance departments because of, you know, COVID, short, you know, short staffed because of COVID. And, you know, we were shifting our focus to this area, so we can't give you the finance data that you need in PT. So a lot of them don't have reasonable data. So I'll just tell you what I do know, some of them are billing nine, seven series codes, some of them are doing, they have a PT that is co located in primary care, they see a patient for a quick evaluation and may provide them with some treatments, if they do some treatments, the physician or other health care providers also seeing that patient in the same day. And they'll do a warm handoff to pt. So then they do incident to billing under the physician's care because they're so they're kind of like CO treating at the same time, even though the PT is collecting those RV use for that visit. So that's one way that they know it can get reimbursed. Some, some locations are not billing their services at all. They're sort of like eating the cost while they're in the primary care space, but they're seeing downstream, you know, boosts in their revenue because more of their patients that they have touchpoints with in primary care are actually then following up and actually seeing them in physical therapy.



And then they're also keynotes finding, like we were reducing imaging by being co located. So there's other you know, benefits.



Then, I mean, there's, I could go on and on, but there's tons of different ways that people are doing this. But we don't have the hard data or anything like in the research to show Yes, this is Effective here. It's going to be effective for every insurance and this and that. It's such a complicated problem.



So I'm just trying to figure out



But as much as I can about it so that when people approached me and asked me questions about how to bill for it, in a typical insurance type system,



I have a variety of options that they could start with. And then I, you know, I hope to eventually talk with some of my, some of my colleagues that are, you know, more more interested and nerdy about research that could actually help me set up a research trial and study the whole thing and report on it accurately. But right now, I'm just collecting data. Yeah, that makes sense. A lot of times as things that are a little bit newer, you kind of go through some growing pains until you can figure out, hey, where does this fit in. So let's say you're a physical therapist in an outpatient clinic, you're not co located with the doctor, and someone does come to you in that direct access. Way, which for those who don't know, it, direct accesses, that means you can see a physical therapist without a referral from a physician, which I think is getting more and more common across the country to a certain extent. So if, if you're



advertising, your marketing is including like, Hey, we're primary care, physical therapists, what does that look like in the clinic? Can you give some examples or an example? Yeah, I can. So one of the things that I teach in my course. So I, I'm the owner of redefine health education, and the two areas where we, where we teach, in particular, our foundations in primary care, PT, and musculoskeletal imaging, which really go hand in hand. And one of the main feet main things that I focus on in my primary care course is how to effectively perform a systems review in a way that is all encompassing, so that if a patient comes to you with a primary shoulder complaint, not only are you doing a systems review, to rule out red flags related to that shoulder complaint, but you're also identifying problem areas that can affect their health, in you know, in the near term, and in the long term, so that you can learn how to educate them appropriately. So let's say a patient comes in to you, you're not co located with another primary care team or anything like that. But if a patient comes to you with primary shoulder complaint, and you also find that they have have hypertension, and they're pre diabetic, and maybe they have an autoimmune disorder, and you know, oh, by the way, they had COVID really bad and they were hospitalized, and they're having some long COVID symptoms, how to ensure that you're including components in your plan of care that address all of that, whether it's just little bits of education here and there.



And also, you know, of course, you know, I want to the one of the other things I teach in my course, is not only just understanding all of that from an evaluation perspective, but then understanding how much the patient is willing to go down and actually allow you to intervene



in their lifestyle habits or, or other areas. So I think that



that process is something that PTS that are working in a typical outpatient orthopedic clinic, are not doing very well. Because usually, we are seeing patients exclusively for an isolated shoulder condition. And we're not really looking into what the rest of their medical history really spells out for us.



But what I teach is



basically intervening in lifestyle and ensuring that they're, you know, if they need medication management for an autoimmune disease, are they actually following it? How is that playing into are related to their shoulder pain? How is that affecting their nervous system? How is that affecting their cardiovascular system?



So yeah, I think that I think that you certainly could, you certainly could. And then another thing, I've had a, I had one outpatient clinic team, or they were kind of like a local regional chain. But they also had a kind of a, analogous to them was a local, regional primary care group, that they were interested in it both privately owned, really interested in collaborating together. So even though they weren't co located, one of the things they thought about doing and that they're in the process of building is they're actually going to have a PT hanging out in the primary care office, whether it's 1233 days a week, or a hat, you know, an afternoon here or there, just to be able to be there and to be able to address patient's functional needs on the spot if they need it. So there's there's all different ways that you can do it. Even if you're going to privately owned you know, private practice or you own your own cash based practice. I think that the more we can get integrated into teams, the better



and do you have any



Um, data that shows how perhaps a team based approach may may improve outcomes or patient satisfaction? I do. Yeah. So a couple of the a couple, there's there's a number of studies that have looked at this, but one of the one of the main ones that I was looking at recently was, I think it was a Dutch study, I'll have to look, I'll have to look at it. But I'm pretty sure this was conducted in the Netherlands. And it was looking at elderly adults, community dwelling, elderly adults, where they had a team based group. So they they looked at a comparator group work was really just a physician and nurses. And then they looked at basically the same, the same group that had a physician, nurses, social workers, I believe they had clinical pharmacy, they had a recreational therapist. So they had this team that would all work with the patients together. And one of the main things that they found was not only improved patient outcomes and patient satisfaction, but also provider satisfaction. And that's one thing that I have found. So that's just one study with one example. But there are a number of studies that show this and just from my own experience working in team based primary care,



I, if I would not have been in those settings, I do not think I would have as as good of an understanding of,



of the other body systems as I would have as I would otherwise. So I think that they, when you work together more frequently, whether you're co located or whether you're just on the phone, or being able to have like a texting relationship with other providers,



they're going to understand what you do a lot better. And, and then they'll learn and grow from that, and vice versa. So I think that not only is there benefit, not only do patients reap the benefits in their health outcomes, and in their satisfaction, but also providers are, they seem to be much happier and have a lower rate of burnout, when they do work in a team, as opposed to just kind of being around the same old, same old all the time, you know, if you just are surrounded by people that are so much that are like you and think like you and do like you and are trained like you all the time for your entire career.



You're not going to learn and grow as much as you would if you were around other people who don't, who weren't trained to like you, and who have a different perspective. And I think I'm able to treat my patients better because I for the most for most of my career have have not been around pts.



And how do you think this fits into the sustainability of physical therapy as a profession? Yeah, so that's, that's this is my favorite question. Um, I gave a presentation recently for the primary care sake, I think it was in May this year 2022. And one of the things I talked about was how I don't, I don't think that our profession, the way that we're doing things is sustainable at all. In fact, I think that



there are so few patients, you know, it's estimated that seven to 10% of all patients with functional complaints ever end up seeing a PT, which is not a good thing, that is not a good thing at all.



And the model that we're kind of trained under and the model that a lot of PT clinics tend to follow, especially if you're in the insurance market,



is they follow where they were, you're seeing a lot fewer, a significant fewer number of evaluations than you are seeing like treatment sessions per day.



But if if the World Health Organization is saying that, you know, 25% of all complaints 20 to 25% of all complaints give or take, you know, depending on your region, and the timeframe, and yada yada 20 to 25% of any any patient encounter in the primary care space or in the emergency department is going to be neuromusculoskeletal related.



And only 7% of those are ever ending up seeing us. Imagine what it would be like if we could be kind of that first person to consult with them. Just imagine that. And so you know, we might see a higher number of evaluations per day, but we can be there to intervene, where it's really the most important, where we can ensure that they're not receiving excessive amount of, you know, imaging or medications or unnecessary tests and studies. And we really are the professionals that should be determining and assisting in figuring that out. So I think that if we were able to intervene just in that one area, then we could save our healthcare system a whole lot of money, we could improve our population health tremendously and



Then we're also going to be leveraging our skills. Because I started my career in the army, I saw a lot of evaluations, like more evaluations than then treatments most of the time. And what I found was my differential diagnosis skills and my ability to screen got really, really, really good really, really, really fast. So the more evaluations and consults that we see, we've been, we're able to recognize more and more patterns, we're able to intervene quickly.



And other providers around us see our value more significantly. And then insurance companies on the other end CRC or value more significantly, if you if you flip the role, and we don't, let's say we don't do that we just continue down the road that we're currently on, where we have, you know, an evaluation or two a day and you know, all of these treatment sessions in order to keep the lights on, if you're still in an insurance based market, in order to keep the lights on for any private clinic owner, you have to you have to maximize the number of visits, that a patient is being seen. Whether that's necessary. Or if you're maybe just loosely saying that's necessary to make sure that you can keep the lights on



if reimbursement is only getting worse and worse and worse, because insurance companies are like, well, we don't really think that's necessary. And we're saying, oh, yeah, yeah, that's necessary. And maybe in some cases it is. But for the vast majority of musculoskeletal health, musculoskeletal problems, we know that if we intervene early, if we reassure if we educate, if we say stay active, and exercise, the the natural history is that they will probably improve and get better. So if we can intervene there,



then we probably will kind of see it shift where we'll do like more evaluations and consults and less treatments and therefore save the insurance company a whole lot of money, save the patient a whole lot of time and money. And then everybody's everybody's happy. So I think that if the roles flip a little bit, and we learn as as a profession, how to be how to serve in more of a consultant role for population health neuromusculoskeletal conditions, maybe, maybe just maybe, maybe I'm crazy, but maybe just maybe the tides will turn and we can be says more sustainable as a profession in the insurance market.



Does that's a long way of answering that question. No, that was a great answer. And you brought something up kind of



more and more people who are going to emergency rooms, a lot of times for musculoskeletal health, and we are starting to see PTs in the ER. And would you? I mean, that's obviously so certainly a primary care physician, right. So what do you think that your typical outpatient or inpatient



physical therapist can learn from those emergency room PTS, that we can kind of take into different settings? Does that make sense?



Sort of I'll start by addressing the the the IDI PTS, by the way, shout out to Rebecca Griffith who is you know, just launched her IDI DPT because this year and she's doing a great job with that but um so if you need specific questions about how to V any how to be a physical therapist in the IDI I personally don't have any experience in that space. But but she does so reach out to her



and maybe we can put her her name in the show notes



but there's a lot of overlap and I think you know we there since there are more there are more PTs in the IDI you'd be surprised actually I've been finding out more and more about PTs in primary care than I ever thought was actually there and probably maybe the the IDI has just been more there's been more exposure given to PTs in the IDI so, so to answer that question, what can



there's a little bit of a difference though. So PTs in the IDI typically don't see their patients back, you know, they might, they might see them one time and it's truly Well, unless, of course the EDC has a lot of repeat offenders but But if we're talking just like the average patient showing up at the IDI, they see their patient one time and it's truly there to to rule out red flags to ensure that they're receiving the most of if they need imaging, the most appropriate, most necessary type of imaging study and that they're getting the most adequate referrals and consults that they need.



Reducing opioid prescriptions and other types of unnecessary excuse me prescriptions and also giving them something to go home with



whereas if they if they just see, like an IDI physician or or another type of typical IDI care provider, they're not as, and I don't want to speak for them I am. So I'm such a huge proponent of working with physicians and nurse practitioners and PAs. But I know that from my experience, even they have told me that I have, I have the knack for just talking to those patients and being able to do that, do that little bit of motivational interviewing and figure out figuring out what's, what works for them, what's going to empower them what they need. And that little bit of education is is important. So but it typically in the day, they won't see their patients back, it's kind of like you're doing a quick evaluation, determining their needs, and then like discharge planning, or the patient is admitted or whatever, right? In primary care, my my whole theory, and really my vision for PTs in the primary care in primary care teams is that we would be co located and or just affiliated, maybe you're not in the same location, but you are affiliated somehow, or you have a close relationship with a primary care team, where you can have lots of good integrative care planning for the patient, and it becomes almost like a revolving door. So with your, with your patients that you see,



like I have my own primary care physician, I can go to my primary care physician whenever if I have a problem or for my annual visit or whatever.



Within my primary care team, I also have access to if I needed, I also have access to a behavioral health provider who is part of that behavior primary care team. And if at any point, I had, you know, a mental health crisis or something like that, I would go to this person because she's a part of my primary care team, and then they all work together and figure out what to do. And, you know, with with my, with my input, figuring out what is the best situation for me. So with PTS, being a part of those primary care teams, you you get access as a patient, you would get access to a PT on a revolving door basis. And then you have established, you have kind of, um, you know, if I, if I was, if I was



the, how do I jump jumbling up, because I get so excited talking about this. If I were a patient coming to see your primary care, PT, my very first visit would be a well visit. And then I would kind of like go through, maybe figure out identify some risk factors or maybe identify, you know, you're not necessarily having a problem. Now, here's what your body normally does and looks like. And this is what you do for physical activity. Let me give you some pointers, maybe, you know, maybe you want to increase your exercise, here's how to do it safely. And then if and when problems do develop down the road, we can address those and I know what your baseline is like. And it doesn't have to be this this finite linear relationship, where there's an evaluation, treat, treat, treat, treat heart discharge, for this one problem. You know what I mean? So I do like, yeah, so it becomes this, you have a team of care professionals that are on your side, and that know you and that know each other, and, you know, maybe they all they're all trained differently, and they all see things from a different perspective. But they all collaborate as a team to help you be able to help yourself the best. And I think that's that, that is my vision for what the future of pts and team based care looks like. And I am like just dying for it to happen, you know, I will make it happen thrive in this. I think that, you know, the rate of burnout in our profession is substantial. And it kills me like I some of my my students are coming out of school after their first couple of clinical clinical rotations. And they're like, this isn't what I signed up for, like, what are my other options? I don't want to be a PT. That's scary. And I think that PTS would



be able to at least at least delay the onset of burnout. If we were able to shift into these types of care models. It would be so refreshing. Yeah, I mean, it definitely sounds like that patient centered care that we talked about the bio psychosocial system of care model of care that I would say most health care professionals are moving towards hopefully.



But it does sound like it's a good environment for the patient a good environment for the clinician, and like you said, you have the opportunity to learn from different professions and from different folks who might not have the same skill sets as you and vice versa. And it also kind of started to bleed into a little bit of lifestyle medicine and things like that, which is something that we can all use. Absolutely. Yeah. I love it. I love all of it. Now



So you had said, you briefly



talked about redefine health. So do you want to go in and and tell the listeners a little bit more about that if they're interested in learning more on how they can brush up on their skills to be a better primary care? PT? Yeah, for sure. So,



um, I've always wanted to I had always wanted to get into the education space, but never in a million years did I think I would ever be starting my own education company. COVID did this to me. But you know what, thank you COVID For that, you know, if there's one,



there's like these unnecessary, I guess unprecedented things that came out of the pandemic. And for me, it was I lost my cash business after it just started.



And it there was a number of things going on with that. But I decided to just jump right into education. And it was a it was an evolving thing for me, I really didn't know exactly what what direction I wanted to take it at first. So it's taken, you know, almost two, it took almost two years to really find my to find my niche and really find my truth and what what I'm the most passionate about, and well, for me, it has always been primary care.



And it just took a while for me to like figure that out from a business perspective. So



So yeah, I teach foundations for the primary care pt. And my my partner, Dr. Lance Mabry teaches our musculoskeletal imaging certification. So I'll talk just briefly about both the foundations for primary care PT is an 18 hour CTE course, and it's really meant for the the physical therapist that wants to wants to like break free of this, this model where patient comes in for neck pain, and you're just really looking at their neck. And



lifestyle medicine, for me has been something that has been really actually life changing. For me personally, I after having kids had a lot of autoimmune problems that I had no idea what was going on. And I just was like kind of scattering going to different physicians here and there. And everyone was like, almost kind of like mandating all of my problems. And then I finally connected with a lifestyle. She's a board certified family medicine and lifestyle medicine physician. And, um, honestly, she helped me so much by just helping me intervene with my diet, and really looking deeply into you know, those six pillars of lifestyle medicine. So, after really kind of seeing what that did for me personally, and what I was able to do as a trickle effect with my patients, and then just diving into the research and seeing wow,



we really need to intervene in lifestyle, if we're going to affect population health. And everybody, every health professional has a role in lifestyle medicine, and lifestyle intervention. So in my primary care course, the whole first day is all about just taking your everybody learns a little bit of medical screening, or should learn pretty solid medical screening and their DBT education, taking what you learned and your DBT education to the next level, where you know, if somebody circles Yes, on a certain number of, you know, past medical history or symptom profile, if they certainly yes, on those things on their intake form, you know exactly what questions to rule up or rule down different conditions to bring you to your, you know, your final set, or your initial list of differential diagnoses. So that's kind of all day one. Day two is more,



kind of a deep dive into visceral pathophysiology. So, okay, we all learned about anatomy and physiology, the heart and the lungs and the GI system and all that stuff.



But when was the last time you really actually spent time with it. So day two is all review of visceral pathophysiology. And I focus a lot on the cardiovascular system, because let's be honest, everybody has Atheros everybody has some level of atherosclerosis. And for most people, it's just it's just your dislike a day or two away from becoming pre hypertensive. So I focus a lot on that and what PTS can do to intervene in patients in their, you know, in that sweet spot, you know, ages 25 to 45, where we can really have an effect on somebody developing or not developing those those chronic illnesses.



And then I also talk about, you know, you can maybe identify, excuse me, you can maybe identify that somebody has some lifestyle factors that need to be assessed, but how do you assess their readiness and their willingness to change? And how do you make sure that you're respectful of their wishes, maybe they don't want to go there. And maybe that's okay, so



I'm so that and then of course, interdisciplinary collaboration and communication as part of my core series I have, I've interviewed other physicians in different specialties of practice and kind of their thoughts on what what PTS are what PT should do. And I play these videos in my course. Because I think that overall,



I don't want to speak for my whole profession, but from my experience, there's more PTS than not that are afraid to pick up the phone and call a physician and tell them what they think and recommend what they want to or what they what they feel is appropriate and and say, Hey, I, you know, this patient seems like there, they've got a neurologic profile that kind of looks like Ms. And, you know, maybe you want to take a closer look at that. So, so what these other fishes physicians actually think and say about PT.



So that's kind of my primary care course, in a nutshell, and Lance's musculoskeletal imaging course. I mean, a lot of people think that imaging is just kind of like, something that's done, you know, if like, you have a if you suspect a fracture, you know, you got your auto ankle and, you know, you've got your, your,



your auto when he rolls and like all the you're Canadian CCI rules and all that. But do we really know for different pathologies? What views and what types of modalities and studies are actually required? In order to effectively rule out a condition? Do we recognize and understand that radiographs are inherently specific not inherently sensitive? So if you have a high level of a high index of suspicion for something, you need to continue the workup? And what do you continue the workup with? Is it MRI? Is it CT? Is it something totally different? Are you doing this to rule out something that's vascular or something that's soft tissue or something that's bony? And I think that, in general, probably not just PTS, but there's a whole lot of people that don't understand those things. And I think we're doing our patients a disservice by not fully understanding those. Because let them I mean, we have to face the fact that imaging is a part of the diagnostic process, whether we want to recognize it or not. So we have to whether you can place the order yourself or not. You need to understand how you need to understand how and why it's done for what purpose, and then how to clinically respond once a patient has had imaging, and who to communicate with and you know, when to pick up the phone and ask some questions to the radiologist. And so Lance does a tremendous job with a way better job than I would do with all of that. So. So yeah, that's kind of the the courses that we have to offer. And, really, I want to, I am not doing this to make money, trust me, like I would be



my husband just graduated with his MBA, like a little more than a year ago. And he's always like, go get your MBA, like you can use how much potential you can make so much money in this space. And I'm like, I don't know, I was put here to do a certain thing. And PT is the profession that I have just like it's, it's more of a vocation for me than anything else. And I just really feel like our profession needs some dire change, and needs people, certain people in it to make moves and make changes. And I understand that my, the visions that I have in my head right now for what our profession could be seem like pie in the sky, craziness, especially with the way that insurance is right now. But if this is the one area where I can have an impact, and start to make more PTS more confident and competent doing this, than Hey, I will, I will retire a happy woman, if that's the case.



Well, and I think that's a great way to start wrapping things up. And I was just going to ask you, like, hey, what do you want the listeners to take away from this discussion? I think you might have just said it, but is there anything else that you really want the listeners to take away?



I mean, basically just that, like, if you if you can, if you want our profession and see the value in what our profession has to offer, we have got to make moves. And and if we can do anything to make our population more healthy, and to make other healthcare professionals see our value, then do it. You know, don't don't like get stuck in your your ways of you know, one patient after the other and then you're home at the end of the day and you know, try to try to do those things to make a change for yourself and for your community.



Just by setting a positive example of what right looks like from a from an evaluative perspective, and from like a from a health care provider management perspective. And the one thing I will my one little parting, parting gift



for everybody, if they if you are interested in taking either one of our course tracks, I you can use the I have a discount code a $50 off discount code for, for either one of those courses for any of the listeners, if you just put HW s podcast 2022 And we'll just maybe put that in the show notes. That'll give you a $50 off discount and it's always Yeah, always happy to chat with anybody or,



you know, hear any inquiries, my email addresses info at redefine health You can call or text me any time and I'm so open to it at 312-772-2322 and I'm on social media and trying to trying to turn it into something so go and follow me at redefine health Edie on all the social medias except for Twitter because it was one character too long, which is so annoying at right so it's Twitter ad redefined Con Ed. Perfect. Well, thank you so much. I can't believe you gave out your phone number. That's insane.



Hopefully, business number.



Oh my god, I was like, I'm gonna have to edit that one out.



That's, that's, that's the big number. So all right, good, good. Good. Okay. Now, last question. It's when I asked everyone and that's knowing where you are now in your life and in your career? What advice would you give to yourself as your younger self maybe right out of PT school? Yeah, I think as a as a young PT, I really thought I knew a lot. And



I really thought I knew a lot I really thought PT could do everything. And



the more I learned about the things that I didn't know, I think the better clinician and person I became and I think that's just kind of the natural evolution and the natural evolution if you're really paying attention to who you are and what you do is you'll find out you just know less and less about you know, you know a little bit about less than less over time and



and yeah, so like always be open to learning other things in different ways from people that you didn't think were were were experts or



you know, just always have listening ears and never drink the Kool Aid. It's not a good idea. Kool Aid is not good for you anyway.



I love it. And you know, that's that is



definitely something that I've heard again and again, as the advice that people would give to their younger selves. So you are in very good company. So Katie, thank you so much for coming on and really, hopefully lighting a fire under some of the physical therapists who are hearing this to



be open to new ways and be open to the to primary care and lifestyle medicine and incorporating that into physical therapy so that we're more than like you said more than just treating the shoulder and the person goes away. So thanks so much for for all of this info was great. Yeah, absolutely. Thanks so much for having me. It's really a privilege. And everyone thanks so much for listening. Have a great couple of days and stay healthy, wealthy and smart.



Thank you for listening and please subscribe to the podcast at podcast dot healthy, wealthy And don't forget to follow us on social media.


Aug 8, 2022
In this episode, Physiotherapy Lecturer and Tendinopathy Researcher, Seth O’Neill, talks about tendinopathy. Today, Seth talks about his interest in tendinopathy, and his presentation at the Fourth World Congress of Sports Physical Therapy. What is the warmup response? Hear about Seth’s diagnosis framework, the appropriate use of imaging, rehabilitation, and get his advice to his younger self, all on today’s episode of The Healthy, Wealthy & Smart Podcast. Key Takeaways “You’re going to have some discomfort with these exercises and that’s okay.” “Get your diagnosis right in the first place.” “Say yes to things when you can. Push yourself and you’ll get there.” More about Seth O’Neill Seth is a Physiotherapy Lecturer at the University of Leicester whilst also maintaining clinical work. He has a PhD on tendinopathy, within this Seth has identified prevalence rates of tendinopathy in UK runners and developed a greater understanding of risk factors surrounding Achilles tendinopathy. His later work has completed a more in-depth analysis of how tendinopathy affects the Plantarflexors. This has focussed on how the strength and endurance is affected and which of the Plantarflexors is most involved. This work has highlighted the involvement of the Soleus muscle in human Achilles tendinopathy. This has led to the further work related to Calf injuries in sports. Whilst Seth’s focus is on the Lower limb he maintains a strong interest in all MSK conditions. Seth feels passionately about supporting Physiotherapists to undertake further research either as standalone projects or MRes’s or PhD’s. Seth is currently examining tendon structure and changes that occur during health and disease along with Biopsychosocial interventions for tendinopathy and LBP and developing an international database of calf injuries. Suggested Keywords Healthy, Wealthy, Smart, Tendinopathy, Physiotherapy, IFSPT, Injuries, Recovery, Rehabilitation, Diagnosis, Exercises, Resources IFSPT Fourth World Congress of Sports Physical Therapy To learn more, follow Seth at: ResearchGate: Seth O’Neill Twitter: @seth0neill Subscribe to Healthy, Wealthy & Smart: Website: Apple Podcasts: Spotify: SoundCloud: Stitcher: iHeart Radio: Read the Full Transcript Here: 00:02 Hey, Seth, welcome to the podcast. I'm so happy to have you on. 00:06 Thanks very much for having me, Karen. It's great to be here. 00:08 Excellent. And today we're going to be talking about tendinopathy, maybe specifically Achilles tendinopathy. But before we get into that, I just want to let the listeners know that you're one of the amazing speakers at the fourth World Congress of sports, physical therapy taking place in Denmark at the end of this month, August 26, and 27th. And you will be talking about tendinopathy. So before we move on, I would love to know why. Why tendinopathy? How did that become sort of your specialty, your interest? 00:46 Yeah, tricky to sometimes answer these type of questions, really. But I've had tendon problems myself. So being active and sporty, I developed an Achilles problem, number of years back when I was a relatively junior physio, and we didn't really understand how we were trying to manage these things. And that took a long time to settle down. So that really sparked it off. And then not long after I developed poutine. And problem as well, my Achilles from wearing sorts of constricted footwear. So wearing wetsuits, boots, for a day, with doing wakeboarding and stuff. So developed the interest because I had the problem myself, which is probably the answer for most people, I think, with how we ended up specializing in one thing and went on to look at Achilles problems and differentiating these out as part of a master's dissertation project that did, and then still had some clinical questions I wanted to answer to help me understand how to manage people better. So I did my PhD in it as well. So yeah, it's one of those sort of sorry, stories of a while me. 01:50 And before this sort of deep dive into the literature, and a master's in a PhD, and maybe even during that journey, are there any cases that you worked on that you were like, Man, I would do it so differently now? Because I'm sure I mean, I know I have that every physio listening to this can probably relate to this. But where have you learned from your mistakes in relation? We'll say, we'll stick to Achilles tendinopathy. Right. So in relation to Achilles, tendinopathy, so that the listeners out there can be like, Oh, I think I just did that. And maybe I'm gonna change my mind. Yeah, 02:28 yeah, we're at a good number of these things, including not too distant past as well. I think like everyone, we're always learning. And we've all just got to admit to mistakes and where we can benefit and do better. So I think my early ones, particularly were around differential diagnosis, getting or missing things that were going on as well. So remember, one relatively young lad with an Achilles problem, sent him off doing Alfredsson Essentrics, this was probably 2001, something like that, came back loads loads worse and had this funny swelling around the back of his money, hola. And I was like, never seen this, this is rare, and didn't know what was going on at all. So sent them off for an MRI scan via our consultant at the time and came back with an accessory soleus, which is where part of the muscle is low lying and actually sort of fills where cake is fat pad is back in money can cause pain and be symptomatic. And the old school approach is to just go in and cut it out. So the surgeon is booked out and ordered and dusted. But I totally missed it. The first time I saw him, I don't know whether the swelling was there at that point, or whether I triggered him off or made him worse with the sort of rehab. So possibly, but also then I've had a couple of people during Alfredsson regimes that have actually ended up with ruptured or partial ruptures, partial tears, as a consequence, and then yeah, you end up sort of feeling terribly bad that what you were doing to try and help someone's actually caused a significant worsening of their function and symptoms, and they even had a patient with this happened last year, who will go and try and write up as a case study because it's really interesting management program afterwards with scans and stuff, but ultimately, they have big problems. 04:15 Yeah, it does. It happens to us all. And how do you from that? You can, you know, we can edit this out if you don't want to answer this. But how do you deal with that from sort of the mental standpoint of oh, shoot, like how do you mentally deal with that? Because I think that when that happens, it can you start to question why am I doing this? Am I the right person for this job? It can lead to burnout, that stress. So how do you manage that from a mental health standpoint, when things like this happen? 04:53 I think the thing is often as a junior therapist, you beat yourself up more because you sort of think I should have known I should sort of understand that, I think as you get more experienced than me, I'm 22 years 23 years qualified. Now you have lots of experiences like this and have to pick yourself up from them. And you just start to accept that that is like that's normal, whatever area of work you specialize in, or work in, whether it's physio, or even being an accountant or something, mishaps in things that you can learn from learning experiences happen all the time. And it's really just then taking what you can from it and developing and getting better. And when you have a bit of a boo boo happen like this, we tend to remember it and you never then miss it in the future. I mean, a couple of examples that I had in the past would be like federal stress fractures wasn't even on my diagnostic radar back when I was a junior therapist. You don't get taught at university and stuff, and then you sort of you miss one. And it's like, right, never missed one again. Now, it's always high up on your index of suspicion. So it's really just not trying to beat yourself up, realize it's a learning experience and identify what you can do. Going forward with it. Part of your CPD of your reflective practice that we're all encouraged to do and often do do but not formally. So yeah. 06:14 Yeah, great advice. Okay, now, let's get into the meat of the podcast here. So what we'll talk about is kind of you mentioned it differential diagnosis. So we'll talk a little bit about that, and then go into some possible treatments and, and outcomes and things like that. So let's say someone comes to you, with posterior ankle heel pain, they haven't been to their GP or to the orthopedic yet, because that happens a lot. Here in the US, I'm sure it happens a lot with you in the UK, as well. So I will hand the mic over to you. And you can maybe walk us through your differential diagnosis framework, what are you looking for when someone comes in with that? 07:03 So the first thing, I think is, as everyone already knows, is not to take whatever the previous diagnostic decision was, if they have seen someone as well, I make sure you do your own workup, because let's face it, we all make mistakes as well. So I'd always look at them with fresh eyes and not go with the the original diagnosis and make my own mind that the three big things that mimic Achilles tendinopathy really then are related to posterior ankle impingement. So in order to try going on, whether it's a bony impingement or not, and they're the ones actually see quite commonly that have been mismanaged that add a cricketer, recently, his professional cricketer, who had been sent from their medical team in one of the counties in the UK, or England, I should say, and unfortunately, that miss that he had a posterior impingement, not an Achilles problem and been trying to manage them and manage him using some invasive procedures, and actually scan and everything else when I scanned in, but absolutely pristine and fine. And that's the one thing I do come across time and time again, it's just people miss the impingement side of it, and normally, the x, so aggravating factors and easing factors that the patient will report to you if you listen carefully, and inquire, will be very, very different. It'll be a totally different set of positions, not about tendon load, it'll be their ankle position. And being in that plantar flexed position that's relatively simple and straightforward. But again, it just, it commonly crops up other common or relatively frequent presentations, then we'll be around several nerve. So one of the branches of your sciatic nerve runs on the lateral aspect of your Achilles, we just want to simply look at something like a straight leg raise with a neural bias for the inverter area. So you do inversion with dorsiflexion. And if movements like that provoked the pain, that's not normal for a tendon, it would normally only hurt when you put larger loads through it. And energy storage demands not simple structures, except in very highly irritable cases. But you can only determine that clinically. So they're the two big things that the third group then is other localized tendinopathies. So to be honest, posterior, or per Nei, which I think you guys call something different in the States. What are the perineal inverters of the foot? We always have problems when we teach anatomy with our students, if they use an American app, it gives it a different name. I forgot this. But anyway, so yeah, so just looking at the differential between those other tendons. So patients may refer and sort of suggest its posterior heel, but actually it's in front of the Achilles. So it's normally relatively localized pain and there's lots of debates on social media about what happens when you get diffuse pain in that area. diffuse pain is really quite rare in this area, and I do see a lot I still work clinically as well as work in that university from a research perspective and I do a lot of consultant work in sports. and wider as well. And we just don't see widespread pain in this region particularly. And the evidence really suggests that tendon off the Achilles particularly will be localized pain. It doesn't sort of spread out. But there will always be some exceptions, I'm sure. 10:15 And it sounds like from what you're saying one of the other really important things is that subjective interview. Yeah, right. So what questions are you honing in on? What are you What do you really want to know? 10:29 So I'm actually take a leaf out of Peter O'Sullivan's approach for back pain and look at the patient's story. How do they describe this originally starting? What's gone on with it from then? And what are their thought processes around that. So we really look at the whole patient, not just that the mechanical bio sorts of components here, but then our teas into the aggravating and easing factors. So where the pain is what makes it worse, what makes it better how long it takes to come on, often expecting a latent response. So the pain is not necessarily happening during this activity, it will be a latent flare up later. Although you'll sometimes get a warm up response during the activity as well. So we're looking for these hallmarks. And what we should pick up in the subjective is progressive tendons stress. So the example would be walking for the Achilles versus running versus hopping or jumping or London being progressive load, the higher you go up that ladder, the more it will flare them up or make them sore. And then what we're trying to do is look at the sin factor, then if you guys use that, as well, so severity, irritability, and the nature, but the irritability is key, the more irritable these are the lower level, we're going to start your rehab. And a lot of this subjective really helps guide our initial intervention program. But of course, on top of all this, we've got to consider the patient and the complexities that we get from our psychosocial component. And we've just had a sort of paper out with Neil Miller, and the group from Glasgow on biopsychosocial approach to tendinopathy. This the icon statement from the international group, that Karen Silverado that you mentioned earlier, and that's really looking at the psychological factors and social factors that are relevant for tendinopathy. Because like any musculoskeletal condition, the person's important, it's not just the the localized tissue that we sometimes can get overly focused on. 12:25 Absolutely, I'm preaching to the choir there. Now you had mentioned something in that, just now the warm up response. So can you explain what that is for the listeners in case they're not quite familiar with that? 12:38 Yeah. So this will be the person that will go for a walk or a run, or whatever their activity tennis, squash, whatever it happens to be, and they'll find it sore initially, and then it will get better, it feels better during the activity. And we tend to see this happens when they've sat for any length of time, if they're an inactive person, they'll get the same response then so the first five minutes of getting up having sat for an hour or two will feel sore, and then it gets better. And this is particularly common in the morning, where patients get up. And they say I was sore for 10 minutes until I've walked downstairs, made myself a coffee or had a shower. And then I feel better ready for the day. And that's typically what we see. So this sorts of pain that is focused around starting an activity when you've been inactive for a period. So that's 13:27 excellent. Thank you so much. So going back to our fictional patients here, they come in, they've got sort of posterior ankle pain, you've ruled out posterior ankle impingement, sural, nerve, local tendinopathies. And now you're really thinking well, given their subjective exam, given the little bit of objective exam that I've done, I think that we're dealing with an Achilles tendinopathy. Right, so you've kind of made that diagnosis. Now, what happens? 14:03 So once we've determined that we think it's an Achilles problem, we just want to make sure that's the case. And the best, most accurate, sensitive clinical test at this moment, whilst it gets a bad press is actually the site of pain. So asking the patient's point to it, or you look at then gripping it and looking at how Patri pain, they should put them to touch that tendon. If it doesn't, then we perhaps not dealing with an Achilles problems that would set up some alarm bells. The next thing then is to work out what sort of tendinopathy they have. And within that, what I mean is there's this sub entities, so there's different groups that will cause Achilles pain. So you could have a parent teen and disorder, like I mentioned, with myself earlier, which is essentially inflammation of the sheath around the tendon a bit like you get with the equivalence, Tina synovitis in the wrist or thumb is that same process, and that probably needs to be managed very differently because that's about friction of the sheath against the tendon. And so we've managed differently, we'd also then consider insertional, tendinopathy versus midportion, the risk factors, and some of the subtle management may differ. And as part of that, often we'll talk about trying to reduce compression of the tendon, which is what happens when you're in a dorsiflex position where the tendon will swash against the superior aspects of the calcaneus. That is had probably inappropriate interpretation from lots of clinicians, where they've heard about it and then say, we should avoid dorsiflexion. And patients then get told to avoid it. But that is forever. And of course, dorsiflexion is normal. So we've got to make sure we have encourages it. But in a highly irritable case behind center factor, we'd avoid that in the initial phases, or reduce it. So might use a heel wedge, so midportion and insertion burn, then with the mid portion, we're trying to look at whether it's really related to the Para tienen there's a potential of a partial tear. Or you can get these other disorders, which we have academic disagreements about, called splits, where actually, if the fibers run sort of longitudinally, you can get a pull in a part of the fibers. And they're called longitudinal splits, or occasionally get a flat tear where the back of the tendon or deep section and tendon pulls off. 16:18 Clinically, for me, they are much harder to manage. And they're the ones that I have, certainly in the last 510 years, made much worse, both symptomatically, functionally and also structurally. And they're the ones I think we need to be cautious about how we look at differentiating those out clinically is on subjective, again of how did it start? Was this a onset that you develop during a sporting activity or a activity a functional activity, like crossing the road and stepping up a curb? Or going down stairs or making a bed or something? Or did it involve whatever else or did it just come on gradually, you were sore the next day, after you did a long walk or a long run, that's more akin to normal typical tendinopathy being a generalized process of degeneration with some inflammatory elements that we sort of know and love as tendinopathy. But these sub entities seem to be very different, I think for management, the problem with all the research, nobody splits them out. So all the research doesn't differentiate out these sub entities, they stick them all together. And part of this is why I think a lot of regimes have washed out, they they look like people get a generally good response, some get worse, some don't respond. But generally about 70% of people get better. I personally think if we can look at these different entities, we will probably improve our rehabilitation. And Karen silver novels work I've forgotten now is going to go ahead and first author a bit. So I apologize. Currently the senior author, they've looked at actually identifying clinical groups, so psychological. So the profile group, a structural group, and more of a biomechanical sort of weakness group. And that's, I think, got some legs to go forward with how we might look at our patients in the clinic. And remember, if there's one more group, there is one more sort of sub entity which is plant Taris, induced tendinopathy. So typical presentation will be middle section pain, a little bit higher than typical midportion. And they may find that actually been in plantar flexed or dorsiflex positions when contracting the muscle, and therefore loading the tendon actually hurts. And that's because the RENNtech muskies work that he's done has shown that you get some compression of the plantaris tendon against the Achilles tendon, it seems to then set up a tendinopathy based on compression. So we can identify that clinically with palpating, the medial side. But ultimately imaging is probably then the better way to identify it. But it doesn't mean they need surgery, either. That's the other important message for you to take away from it, they've always had that plantaris. It's always been there for that person's life, they've developed the symptoms for whatever the reason, and they will probably respond to normal management, but maybe with some modification to load in in dorsi, flex or plantar flex positions. So we work in the middle a bit more initially until we're starting to settle and improve. Certainly in my clinical work, they will settle just as well as any other area does. But of course, with a lot of the research people are seeing tertiary sort of work failed, we have failed rehab with multiple people. And then of course, they're more likely to go on to surgery. So we've always got to interpret the literature a little bit with caution based on the populations that the research groups or whoever is writing the paper actually see and deal with clinically. 19:45 Yeah, that was a great overview. Thank you so much. Now that you mentioned imaging, so can you explain how you explain to the patient Do you need imaging? Do you not need imaging? When it comes back? Let's say an MRI comes back. And they're all out of sorts, because Oh, the doctor said, I have damage to my tendon, how am I going to fix this? Right? So how do you deal with that? Because if that is what happens, and then people say, well, when we're done, should I get another MRI? So that I can see the tendons back to normal? So how do you respond to that? 20:29 So that last one I'll deal with first, that is that actually, you're probably going to see some residual changes in the tendon that will take a long time to settle down. And this may be akin to scarring. So when you put your hand you end up with the scar afterwards. And that actually, what we're seeing on the imagery at a later date may be similar to that scoring process. And also reminding them that attendance is very slow to remodel and recover. So really, we're talking about imaging a year plus, if we want to look at it. And it doesn't matter what the tendon looks like, it matters, whether their symptoms and their function and good early on, I would have a different conversation in an elite sporting population, though, where actually, we know that attending that has structural changes is seven times more likely to develop symptoms the next season. And actually, I would probably then want to be changing the tendons structure. But again, that will be a discussion I have with the medical team, perhaps not the athletes so much, because we don't want to, we have to be very careful about the psychological impact of our words with our patients. And this is why imaging has had bad press over a number of years. Because it's often given to patients and they get told, Well, you've got tendinopathy, you've got big tearing there, there's loads of fluid and inflammation and the patient's like, well, I need to then rest until it settles, I need to sort of get this better, and how the hell is it loading exercise is going to help me get better when that's actually what's triggered it. So they're the clinical challenges that we have to explain in terms of the first phase, when we do the imaging, I simply try and D threaten them with it. So say, Look, this is typical of what we'd observe for somebody with tendinopathy. So that is tendon pain that you've presented with. This is not out of the ordinary, this isn't something that's particularly severe, assuming that that's the case based on the imaging. And I've also with MRI identify that it's actually a poor technique to look at collagen. So all we're going to see is high signal, really, it's very, very hard, you need to be have an excellent scan and an excellent radiology radiologist to really examine collagen fibers with it. So it will tell us how big the tendon is. And it will tell us how much fluid there is in there. But we know that that doesn't have a strong relationship with pain. And this is again, part of the reason why we wouldn't want to do it down the line say much. Having said that, again, Karen southern handles group, it's got some lovely papers that have come out that showing structural change does occur with functional resolution and improvement in symptoms. So we've got 42 different research groups in the world at the minute the Australians have often said we shouldn't be looking at imaging, whereas actually Karen's group and I think where we're taking it in the UK is that we should it has a use. But we've got to be very careful with that interpretation. And we certainly see changes in tendon structure as we have patients, we don't need to see it in order to get resolution. But that's because structure doesn't correspond to what's likely to be the key chemical factors in the tendon that are actually what's triggering pain. And we know there's lots of different chemicals involved in tendinopathy. So it's sort of trying to tie it all together. My reason for imaging, I use imaging in practice most of the time is to help we lay patients fears because often they're concerned about the risk of rupture. And this has come out in Shama core lifts qualitative work on Achilles patients. So by imaging, I can actually say, Look, your tendon has plenty of healthy tissue here. This, as best we can say, at this moment in time, is a very low risk for rupture is no higher than a normal person, because there's the same amount of tissue as a normal person would have. 24:06 Where we then have to be careful is where we find that's not the case. And we've just been doing a big longitudinal study in premiership rugby in the UK. Looking at this to see about how that changes. And Matt, who's doing a PhD with me, is going to be analyzing and looking at that data. So Matt Lee is head of medicine at Northampton saints. So Matt's got a big bit of work to determine whether really it ties in and whether we can predict who gets more symptoms, how that ties and, and they don't leave those, but we need to test that and so we're going into it to see probably, but yeah, good use, I think for imaging but not longitudinally imaging for most of your patient group. And it's not necessary and most of you patients you've got coming through your front door for a normal practice. But where there was a sudden onset of pain during activity, and they don't respond Do a six week sort of period of intervention or 12 week period, that's when I would want to image to see what I'm dealing with. Or where there's overt metabolic changes in the person. So adiposity, so high lipid levels, high adipose levels, so the waist circumference, and diabetes, then we want to just make sure they've not got some underlying problems, like, sort of gout that's going on or pseudo arthritic complaints. So yeah, that's where we're going, we might just step up a little bit and maybe consider blood tests as well. 25:33 Great, thank you. Now, let's move on to some treatment options. Right? So we've we've done the differential diagnosis, maybe we got imaging, maybe we didn't, we've, we've ruled everything out, we're pretty confident we've got an Achilles tendinopathy, I will leave it up to you, if you want to say well split it from like, you know, lower to sort of an upper you can, I'll let, I'll leave that in your hands, and how the rehab may be different. 26:05 There's no magic. So that's the first thing. There's no exercise, it's better than the other. It's about understanding the basic principles of rehabilitation here. And this is really what we do, I think, for all of our patients we ever see during a normal clinical role is going well, what do they want to do? Where are they now? How do we bridge that gap? And that's essentially what you're trying to do with your patient is, what's their functional ability at this moment in time? What do they want to do going forwards and coming up with a strategy to try and progress through that? Making sure that that allows for appropriate timescales. So tissue recovery, after exercise, if we're trying to adapt muscles, and muscle strength, which is often one of our big aims, we need to allow appropriate timescales. So 12 weeks plus, rather than expecting rapid changes quickly. So what that looks like in practice is going well, initially, we're going to start off with some form of loading for the Achilles tendon. Now, I would use a very, very isolated exercise, because you can compensate by offloading us in other muscles if we do more complex tests often. So an isolated simple exercise will be a heel race, you can't cheat, you can't use your quads and glutes to compensate, you have to use your calf and it puts stress through your tendon. And there's a nice work with Steph Leser, there's just to out on a systematic review, we're just sort of tweeting about earlier today on tendon material properties and how loading modifies the tendon, and part of what we want to do is improve the stiffness of the tendon, because with the Achilles tendinopathy, it will be less stiff. And that's generally pretty accepted. So we want to make it stiffer. And loading does that the loading needs to be progressive in nature. So we use the symptoms to determine that current simple novel, initially pioneered the pain monitoring model. So looking at how sources during the activity and afterwards, getting an appropriate level of discomfort that the patient can tolerate, doesn't impact their function and making it harder. So something like bilateral heel raises if somebody's really Niggli and saw progressed to a unilateral heel raise, that's about four times body weight through the Achilles tendon. For a bilateral erase, again, depending on the modeling method that's used Josh Baxter in the state system, some nice work on this in his lab, and he's got a lovely paper with Karen as well showing exercises that increase tendons stress. And that's a really good paper for your listeners to have a little read off to look at how to progress or to give ideas of exercises and how they would progress through that. Running, for example, be about five to six times body weight for the Achilles per step. So what we're trying to do is go well walk ins for running six, how do we cross that boundary and use other exercises, or just add external load on to heel race, which is probably easiest way. And that then allows very isolated, monitored exercises. At the same time, I would always use walking or running the same period of time, we wouldn't withdraw them unless we're very, very slow and very struggling. So we'd always use that. And in most patients, if we're not talking athletic, we don't need to use plyometric training jumping up in and stuff we can use walking and running, if necessary to do that. But the more elite athletes, I would always be looking at plyometrics. So hopping jump in London, whatever it happens to be accelerations decelerations off tangent runs, they all increase the stress through different fascicles of the tendon. And that's I guess one of the aspects we can consider that's not been researched yet, and it's where we're going with our work is how we might bend the knee or straighten the knee or rotate the foot to isolate the stress through different sections of the Achilles that correspond to where on imaging we see the degradation. So if we ever want to remodel the tendon, we also need to Reese stress To the tendon at an appropriate threshold, that needs to be 85 to 90 or more percent of your maximum voluntary contraction. And let's face it, we have never done that because most rehab doesn't quantify strength. So I'd always measure spend 30 on a lot of you guys, I think in the states have access to isokinetic devices within your clinics or in local clinics, or other force measurement devices. And I, Scott Morrison's, got quite a lot of sort of workout suggesting how you might be able to do this with a handheld dynamometer, then there's methods we can do with that, or even a set of bathroom scales, to actually utilize a measure strength to give a patient a marker. So our normal data in rugby and football on large cohorts is twice body weight is normal. And we've got similar in endurance runners, our patients are typically one and a half times the weight. But that means doing a heel raise with just their bodyweight will not strengthen them significantly. And that's where we lack we have been our rehab has to be a lot heavier than we've often done in the past. So yeah, so in a nutshell, bilateral raises unilateral progressing through I don't use isometrics early as a method for pain relief, because the evidence substantiates it's not actually that good for pain relief, unless patients find it when the fork which case use it, the heel raises. good warm up response anyway. 31:24 Perfect. Yeah. And in the states do a lot of places have isokinetic testing? I don't know. Sorry. I don't I don't know about that. Even here in New York, I don't think you know, outside of like the larger systems. I don't know that a lot of individual physical therapy offices have that i i do have a handheld dynamometer. And I'm lucky enough to be friends with Scott Morrison. So he was able to kind of take me through and and how to use it. And but it's sometimes this setups can be a little complicated, especially if you don't have an office, if you go to people's homes, how do you stabilize one end and use the other end, and I've come up with some interesting options? Yeah, it's work. I use a seatbelts, I have chains, I have like this, the green, you know, the green stretch strap. Yeah, that with all that I started using that, because it doesn't give, you know, it's pretty, it's pretty good. So kind of it kind of along the line of a seatbelt, you know. So I started using that instead of using even some chain link, I found it to be a little bit easier, a little more gentle for people on their phones, 32:49 strap ratchet strap that you might use on a roof bar. So roof rack, you might actually use that strap and those type of straps can be very good, especially if the wider if the narrower than it hurts the person's knee when you strap it on top. But ultimately, I like it because we can showcase that they need to do strength work because they are weak, more data to give them when you haven't got that opportunity, it's really just sort of giving them this sort of step sort of wise approach to go while you're here need to be there, we need to progress through this and you then just target an exercise that is tolerable, but is sort of getting a little bit of reaction afterwards for a short period. So I've said bilaterally raises unilateral, unilateral with weight, or progressive forwards. And if you're a physio or PT that likes lots of different exercises, give them a dozen, that's fine. But if you're like me, I'm very simple, I just give them one or two things to do really well to do very regularly. And what we avoid in that way is they don't do the things that feel comfortable and easy, because that's what patients generally do. And they're avoid the ones that hurt them because they think it's making them worse. But if we educate them that this is critical, we've got to poke it a little bit to stimulate the cells and improve muscle strength to help the muscle shock absorber for the tendon, which is our current understanding of what we're trying to do with rehab. Then we've got to actually sort of work very well in a bit of discomfort. 34:21 And you beat me to the punch that was going to be my next question is how do you talk to the patient about like, this is not going to be pain free, necessarily, you know, you're gonna have some discomfort. So you kind of beat me to the punch on that. But I think it's important that patients know that you're gonna have some discomfort with these exercises and that's okay. Because a lot of people have been told, I certainly I see it, I'm sure you see it their whole life if it hurts, don't do it. 34:47 Yeah. says and what you've got to explain to them and I often use examples of relatives that you might have had that have had a hip or knee replacement done in the hospital and how afterwards they have to bend it have to walk And actually, yes, it hurts when he gets better or if you've broken your arm and you're in a plaster how gently stretching out when you come out of plaster help to get better. And that's then normally enough to help people go. Yeah, I understand that I can see how that would help and I also then often just explain that as you do this and you get the symptoms afterwards that's the cells in the tendon excreting some chemicals that whilst it makes it a bit sore, they also actually be modelled the tissue. And what we're trying to do is wait the cells up to repair the tissue, wait, repair the tendon, but also improve your muscle as well at the same time. And we've got to stimulate it. It's no different from delayed onset muscle soreness if you go to the gym so that's the other one that are commonly used as the example then we'll turn them penis Dom's is this chap called William Gibson in Australia has done a whole PhD on delayed onset soreness, because it's tendons that you've looked at and connective tissue, not muscle fibers sarcomere itself. And his work I think is really pivotable pivotal with our understanding of it. So yeah, flip it around as Dom's most patients have had Dom's at some point in their life. Yeah. 36:11 Oh, that's great. Yeah, I love that. Well, I have to say, I'm gonna have to re listen to this a couple of times, even though I'm here, I feel like I'm missing things. Like you're speaking I'm like, wait, what? Wait, did I miss this? And we have to listen to this over and over again, because everything is so good. And I think thank you for making it so applicable to the practicing therapist. Because I think that there are nothing against researchers. But there are a lot of practicing therapists out there probably more so than researchers who depend on you guys to be able to to some disseminate this information in a way that is practical and makes sense. So thank you for that. Now, as we start to wrap things up, what do you want the audience to take away from our conversation today? What are some key points, 36:56 I guess the most important parts of monitoring and treating people with tendinopathy is just get your diagnosis right in the first place. Differential diagnosis gets a lot of bad press at the moment, I think on social media, and it's been wanting to sort of dumb down and go with just we've got posterior heel pain, but how I treat an impingement versus tendinopathy will be very, very different, you need to differentiate. And then you need to look at isolated tendon and muscle exercises that is progressive in nature. And I think the key message to physical therapists and physios is that we need to load a lot heavier than often we've done in the past. And by getting normative values for certain sports like we're doing at the moment will help guide what we should be targeting. And they have performance relevance as well when you're dealing with athletes. But for a normal patient, this is a difference between crossing the road quickly in front of the car that's coming in, versus actually ended up with the car getting a bit too close to you. 37:55 Got it? Yeah. And and I love that load heavier and looking at the normative values, because like you said, if running is five to six times body weight, and you're working with someone doing a single leg heel raise, just with their own body weight, that's just not going to be enough. Yeah, right, we've got to we've got to push them a little bit more to load a little heavier. So thank you for that. Now, Seth, where can people find you if they have questions they want to ask you or they, you know, they want to find your research, where can they contact you. 38:27 I'm not a huge one for pushing the sort of research out other than via Twitter. So I have a Twitter handle that we sort of use regularly. And we'll put papers on there and things. But I don't have technically got a website that's on my Twitter profile, but I don't update it. So I'm terribly slack and too busy to bother updating it and need to sort it out. But hopefully this next year, I have a bit more time. So Twitter's The best one is just Sefo Neil, but yo is zero, because there's already another stuff anyone in the world someone and then my other handle is Achilles tendons on there. And just so you all know, it wasn't ego thing. We set it as Achilles tendons, because we went on Twitter originally to recruit patients for our research because some cancer specialist at the University had suggested it was a really good way is terrible, because you need loads of followers to be able to recruit patients and actually get your message out there. It was great for networking. And that's I think the big thing with it. So I network predominantly and occasionally advertise research projects that we're doing now. I've got enough followers to actually get some patients through the door that way. But yeah, not ego because it just so we're clear, 39:33 of course, and we'll have links to those Twitter accounts in the show notes at podcast at healthy, wealthy And like I said at the top of the our conversation, you are speaking a few times at the fourth World Congress is Sports Physical Therapy in Denmark at the end of this month, August 26 to 27th. So do you want to give a little sneak peek about what you're going to be talking about? At And what are you excited about for the conference? 40:03 So, myself and Karen Silva novel are going to be running a joint session for the British Journal Sports Med breakout on treating people with tendinopathy. So we're gonna do two sort of sessions of that. So replicate it. So hopefully, if you're interested in coming in, you can come in and send that and hopefully, it'll be nice and interactive, and flesh out some of the aspects we've discussed now, Karen, and then I'm chairing the session, which will be the session that I'm most looking forward to with Karen's there, who else have we got, I gotta get it right now. Michael Caja, and also Ben, Steph, Dakin, as well. So really looking forward to that. We're really nice to hear these guys talk because they are literally at the top of that sort of pinnacle of researchers and clinicians really worldwide. And then Denmark's nice. I mean, every conference, all I've ever managed to see is a little bit of Copenhagen. Because it's been sports Congress. And I normally dash in and bash out at conferences. So it's a little bit the same this time around. But I'm actually looking forward to seeing a bit of seen a bit of Nyborg. And also put two hours in the middle of the day for activity. And they've suggested paddleboarding. And whilst I dislocated my shoulder a week ago, or two weeks ago, it's my second time and I'm actually I was paddleboarding at the end of the week. So I'm hoping that there'll be a bit better by then and actually get out and have a decent paddle board and some exercise rather than just sat at the conference. So that's one of the things I'm looking forward to, and of course, enjoying a small beer with yourself. 41:40 That's yeah, it's a small beer. I look forward to it. And I'm looking forward to going in the summer, because I've only been to Copenhagen in February, and it is cold, and snowy and rainy, and all that stuff. So I'm looking forward to going in the summer. And just looking forward to seeing a lot of people that I haven't seen in a while. So that'll be really fun. And now last question, it's a one I asked everyone knowing where you are now in your life and in your career, what advice would you give to your younger self? 42:13 Oh, gosh. Yeah, it's a really hard question. For me. I always fancied doing research, but I was always put off because there was no ability to do it when I first qualified to do a PhD in the UK was rare in physio, and you might have been able to get a stipend which is 15,000, a year, UK, which actually quite peaker often they further physios as well. Whereas now I'd actually say if that opportunity comes up, even if it's a bit of paper, I take it if you can, because it does open a lot of doors as you progress forwards. And I would unlike other people, sometimes I'd actually say yes to everything. Generally speaking, when it comes to work, not anything else in life, to look at options that we can just opens doors, you get so many things that you don't realize where it will lead and you agree to do something and actually, certainly in these uncertain other things that are fantastic and change your career. So say yes to things when you can push yourself. And yeah, you'll get that. So read the next Roscoe put that. 43:21 Perfect. Thank you so much. This was a great interview you gave us so much to think about as myself as a practicing clinician. So this was great. Thank you so much. 43:31 Pleasure, absolute pleasure. And thank you very much for having me, Karen. Yeah. And 43:35 everyone. Thanks so much for tuning in. Have a great, great couple of days, stay healthy, wealthy and smart. And also if you hope to see you in Denmark, so there's still time we've still got a couple of weeks before the end of August. So if you haven't already, sign up because it's going to be great. So thanks, Seth, and thanks everyone for listening and stay healthy, wealthy and smart.
Aug 1, 2022

In this episode, Founder of the Elevate to Thrive Academy, Relinde Moors, talks about self-limiting beliefs and entrepreneurship.

Today, Relinde talks about how our inner work can determine our business success, and how to identify limiting beliefs before they take hold. What are 5 limiting beliefs that keep us stuck?

Hear about ways to change limiting beliefs, how our thoughts impact our beliefs, and get Relinde’s advice to her younger self, all on today’s episode of The Healthy, Wealthy & Smart Podcast.


Key Takeaways

  • “You can shift a belief in a moment what has taken a lifetime to build.”
  • “If you are feeling a desire to change that story in some way, you actually can.”
  • “The thought creates a feeling or emotion, and that emotion creates an action.”
  • “The thoughts, in the end, creates the result, not the circumstance.”
  • “If you have the vision or the idea or the feeling or the impulse, that is the thing to follow.”


More about Relinde Moors

Relinde Moors is the founder of the Elevate to Thrive Academy. Elevate to Thrive helps vision-driven coaches and experts make more impact and money, by elevating their energy, story, and sales.

Her clients have turned their freelance work into a multiple 6-figure thriving business, changed to 3-day workweeks while doubling their revenue, and moved to their dream country with their now 100% location independent online empire.

Her signature approach comes down to creating a clear and simplified business strategy and elevating your subconscious beliefs to support you goals.

Relinde lived and worked worldwide and recently found her way back home to a beautiful little ‘castle’ in a Dutch forest.


Suggested Keywords

Healthy, Wealthy, Smart, Entrepreneurship, Limiting Beliefs, Vision, Strategy, Myths,



5 Myths About Limiting Beliefs that Keep Entrepreneurs Stuck.

How to Assemble a Mental Superhero Team to Realize Your Dreams.


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To learn more, follow Relinde at:


Facebook:       Relinde Moors

LinkedIn:         Relinde Moors

Instagram:       @relindemoors


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Read the Full Transcript Here: 


Hi, are you there? Got it. Okay, great. Yeah, yeah. Hi, Melinda. Welcome to the podcast. I am so happy to have you on as a guest. We've been trying to do this for a while. So I'm really excited. Thanks for coming on.



Yes, thank you for having me. I'm really happy to be here. Finally.



Yes. And our connection is we did Selena Sue's impact accelerator in 2020. I believe it was, because it was right during the beginning of the pandemic. And so we spent nine months together, I think, right? Was it nine months, six months, nine months was a long time. So it was really a wonderful group of women led by Selena and her team. And Linda was one of those wonderful women. And I'm really excited to have you here now. And we are going to talk about some limiting beliefs that we may have as entrepreneurs that keep us stuck that don't allow us to move forward. But before we get to those nuggets, let's talk about how you came to realize that business success was highly dependent on the inner work we're willing to do. So I'll kick it over to you.



Yeah, great. Okay, so a little bit of my background, I studied dance and theater. So I actually worked as a choreographer as a dancer for like, 17 years, and I have my own dance company. And, and I thought that that was going to be what I would be doing my whole life, until things just changed. And I ended up going for a holiday to Bali. And in that holiday, a lot changed. And a lot happened. Long story short, I decided to quit my dance company. And I decided that I wanted to start more of a business of my own and an online business. And I ended up staying in Bali. So I got a little job there in a local yoga school teaching yoga and teaching contemporary dance, making very little money, because that was in rupee, us. And you need a lot of rupees to go around. So I could just maintain my living there, I was living on my savings, and I was making there. And in the meantime, I was learning more about business. Because even though when I look back, I wasn't an entrepreneur before that. I really didn't know that in a way that was just artistic. That was my focus. So it was learning about entrepreneurship, about online business, I found out how to do things I learned all the techniques started to create online courses, that all the things but it didn't really take off. And in that time on Bali, I took a course on limiting beliefs, it was specifically on that topic. And in that course, I at one point said to the teacher, listen, I need to really take a break because I'm working with a business coach, and I need to write my about page and I need to write all these things. And I have been working on it for days and days and days. And I don't seem to get it and I need to spend time and she said, that's okay, you can take the afternoon off. But why don't we look at the beliefs that are in the way of you just writing them. And she tested beliefs. And I remember there were beliefs like, I am a leader, I'm an expert. I I know who I am, I know what I want to do things like that. And some of those beliefs and I say tested actually have to explain that. We tested that with muscle testing with a Kinesiology technique. And she did that. And they were like testing as a no. So we worked on the beliefs and right after I said, Okay, I'm gonna sit down and write is about page and I just wrote it. I got it out. And that felt really good showed it to my business coach. And about like, two weeks later, I started to make so much more money. I literally made $15,000 In two weeks, which was totally surreal for me. And from then on, just something clicked in my head, I was okay, I needed to shift certain beliefs to have a breakthrough in a way to put myself out there and actually run a business and make money in a healthy and empowering way.



And what were the beliefs that were holding you back? What did you have to step over?



Yeah. I mean, fairly, honestly, a big belief that I found that I didn't know wasn't in because these beliefs live in your subconscious. So they often feel very big and dramatic, I would say. But there was a belief that I found that was I'm a failure, which was also related to me as because in the Netherlands, I was having a good career as a choreographer, my dance company against all odds was touring in the Netherlands and, and even abroad. And I was quitting that, but I felt I'm a failure, I'm like a failure, if I do that, because I didn't become this artist, or I'm gonna always feel at this business thing, I can never make so much money. So that were the kind of beliefs that I was mainly battling. And, and that and that felt deep, that felt really painful. It was very confronting to look at that. And to, to see that and so we did all the work around it. We'll get to that a little bit. Maybe later on, but there's just events in life that create those beliefs. So all of that came up. And I had to work through pretty emotional things to really let them go and have the change happen, because those beliefs changed.



Yeah. And now let's talk about those limiting beliefs. So there are a lot of myths kind of swirling around about some limiting beliefs that might keep us stuck. So why don't we dive in? I think there's five I'm sure there's 50. If there's five, right. But we'll take maybe some common ones. So let's, let's talk about number one.



So one is that a belief is just a thought that you keep thinking? And I don't I don't agree with that it does. It's not for that song on repeat. Because very often, we don't even know what are those beliefs, we think now I think I'm good enough, I think I'm good enough the way I am, right? And then when you look at the subconscious mind, it might not actually deep down believe that. Or I've worked with people, even really successful business people that make millions, and, and they have built so much success in their life. And I've worked through that. And they have, you know, the cars and the house, and they have the success. And we worked and we found beliefs around confidence. Like again, like the kind of I'm not good enough beliefs, or I'm not confidence, I actually don't know. This only can cut. And, and what so what seemed is that you can have this external reality of really success and being confident and being all the things. But then the belief doesn't have to support that. And then it even seems that this belief of I'm not successful, or I'm not confident, so I'm not good enough, actually became a motivator. A drive to always work harder to always do better. So it becomes it's another reason for the for the subconscious mind to not let go of that belief is like, hey, we get a lot out of that. Mm



hmm. Yeah. Especially if it becomes a driving force, you think, well, this is a good thing that I think or believe this, because it's driving me to where I am now. And then so then the question is, Is it harmful to get rid of that belief? Or what would happen if if that belief were to change if that's your motivating factor?



Yeah, when I work with my people, like in the method that I use, really, literally tell the brain? I mean, we will look for like, what are those benefit benefiting factors that came from that limiting belief? What are the good things and often Yes, motivation, or I'm connected, you know, other people like me, if I don't have I'm not so successful, I play a little small, and really liked and loved. And, and those are good things. And it's good to be connected to other people and to be humble even if you want that. But you don't need the limiting belief for that. And we will literally tell the brain, you can be successful and still be liked and loved and still be a really good person. And you know, you can have all those good things. I'm thinking of a woman I worked with, and it's a really clear example. She had this limit of she had her own business, and she was making about $5,000 a month. And she really felt like a limit there. Like, really like every time I go above that I get really uncomfortable. I do something to have a be relaxed the next month, she would even sometimes get physically sick. And I said, Okay, let's look at the belief. And what turned out is that in her life, in many different ways, she had learned that it's really, that you become a bad person if you make a lot of money. And she had worked before that for oil and gas companies and had stopped that because she felt my values just don't align with that. But it was over Ever in her life, it was reinforced that you can only make if you make a lot of money, you're a bad person. And when we could switch that I remember so well that she switched it. And she said, Oh, I want what I really want to believe is that money can be a force for good. And that if I make lots of money, I can make a beautiful positive impact in the world. And she literally, we did that session. And literally the next month, she started making three times more or four times more, just because she could not do that in a way that will stand in line with with her values. Really?



Yeah. And that's a deep, that's a deep one. To get over. I was



really deep. And then you also see it already, the parents have, you know, always taught her things like that. And then you just see how to hold family. And of course, the whole society would would teach things around them. Yeah, yeah. Oh, wow.



Okay, so that's a big, that's a big myth. What's Myth number two.



So Myth number two is that you can just replace the belief with a simple thought. So you just decide, I don't feel good enough or rich people are evil, like rich can be literally you believe or if I'm rich, I'm, I'm, I'm bad, or anything like that. And then you see it, and you just change it. Sometimes that might be the way and that is great. But it really isn't always. And that is because there's different reasons, as we just talked about this idea of like, hey, it's actually served me that the subconscious holds on to it. I speak about four reasons which one reason is the gifts as we just said, like the good things that came out of the limiting beliefs is the fear of the positive belief, I have so much money, that no, I will lose all my friends, because we will get to bigger difference, for example. And then there is people in places, which is people that told you that. So for example, my father told me that and I'm part of the family, as we just said, because he believes that so I want to believe the same. And then as emotions, which has to do with forgiveness, letting go of anger and letting go of resentments or regret.



Right, so you just can't say a positive thing every day. And poof, the belief is expunged?



No, yeah, as I said, it's really great. Because sometimes, yes, sometimes that works. But if something is a bit deeper, it's really good to do some deeper work around it. And that is, yeah, what I hate if people feel bad because of that, they're like, Oh, I just did all my affirmations. And I noticed and still I don't do this, and they almost get angry with themselves. And I'm like, let's get really kind with ourselves, because it's nothing but your subconscious mind actually wanting to protect you and thinking, hey, this believe we've had this for a long time. We want to keep it Yeah, right.



Right. Okay, that makes a lot of sense. Okay, what's Myth number three.



Myth number three, that would be another side of the coin is that you can't change them. So some people think this is just the way you are, people don't change in the core as they are, this is how it is or, and that is not true. either. You can definitely change them, you can change them on a deep, subconscious level. And then it will be you will almost forget it. Like I get clients and I have forgotten that I felt that behavior. Normally I would get really nervous if I would get on stage and speak in front of people. And this time, I just didn't even feel anything because we shifted to believe that was causing that nervousness, for example.



Yeah, and I'm sure a lot of people even as they get older, so you know, I've, I've been around for 50 years, you're not going to change my beliefs. That's part of who I am. Right. So that must be challenging to work with someone like that. So how do you approach a person that may come to you and say, Well, this is me. Can't change it? Yeah,



absolutely. I mean, first of all, I would talk about the fact that a lot of the beliefs that we have appear to be the truth, and that this might be one of them. So I would challenge that and I would see if I could get an opening in and what if we could we could change in right now. And and and then it might take time to really embody it and to really integrate it in your life. But what if that wouldn't be possible?



Yeah. And then it gets people thinking, Well, I mean, well, what if it did happen, then what would the outcome of that be what would my life look like? If I was able to, to change some of these beliefs that I think are impossible to change.



Yeah, exactly. I would also explain that. And this makes it quite concrete, I think that we have, you know, you have all the outer circumstances in life, the things that we experience. And then sometimes we feel powerless over those circumstances. Yet, the moment that you become empowered is when you think, Okay, this is the circumstance, I don't know, what would be a good example something that we're not happy with.



Let's say your what's your it'd be a good example. You. I mean, we can you can't find people to join your or to to be a part of your online course you you're launching an online course you've launched it, it's been a couple of months, and it's crickets no one's coming. So must mean oh, well, I just as I thought it's not good enough. No one's coming.



Exactly. Okay. Great example. So we have that circumstance, not selling anything, you did a whole launch did all the work, and it didn't work. So now, if your foot is exactly that must mean, it's not good enough, this is not gonna work, then you can ask yourself, Okay, I have that thought about the circumstance. I have that thought, what kind of what emotion does that create? So if I think you see is not good enough, I'm gonna feel a little sad and tired, I think and not so motivated to start over again. Then if I have that emotion, what kind of actions do I take? Maybe I quit it once. I, you know, I won't do it again. It's just like, I tried that this didn't work. And then I will have that results, it will never come. So this is how we and that is also how it works is like all the time does belief gets confirmed in life. That's how it works. So now when you change the thoughts, and you think, Hmm, interesting with curiosity, it didn't work this time. I am totally convinced that it can work. What can I change? Now you will have a different emotionally motivated, you're curious, maybe you'll ask a mentor or your hire a coach, I don't know what you'll do to figure that out. You take different actions, you launch it again, this time it sells out, yay. And then you have a different result. And then the belief will really be shifted. So this makes it I think, pretty concrete, and how those beliefs shape our reality, and how we actually have so much more power over our circumstances, no matter what happens, because we have power over what we think about him.



Yeah, I love that. And it, it's like, instead of looking at it as a complete failure, perhaps it's an opportunity to go a little deeper to do a little investigating. And to put it out again. Yes,



exactly. Yeah. And you know, if we go even a little deeper into that, for example, when I had my belief, I'm a failure, and some fat and I had actually a course that I sold it only to one person, and this person had in two weeks time asked for refunds. So imagine having that belief was horrible. It was so shit ashamed. You see, I'm a failure. So triggering that but having the understanding and then shifting, that belief was so powerful, not only for the business side, but in so many other areas of my life. So I now always say, Never waste a good trigger. If something like that happens. Yeah, that's amazing. We can find a belief we can shift it and that actually good news.



Wow, thanks for sharing that. What about myth number four?



Myth number four. Is that if you have that, yeah, we talked a little bit about that, but that it takes a lifetime to change them that if you've I've heard this often well, if you had something for 30 years, you will take 30 years to get rid of it. If you do and I really believe in going into that deep subconscious work. Because the conscious mind of course, it does a lot that the subconscious drives a lot of the behavior and results in the end, then you can actually change it in in a single session or in a in a moment. And then of course, as I said, it takes time to integrate it but they are Yeah, you can shift to believe in in a moment What has taken a lifetime to build? Yeah,



right. And I think that's important because a lot of people may think, Well, I don't have time to do this kind of work, because it's going to take months and months and months, years and years or a lifetime. I don't have the time.



Yeah, that that would be. It depends on how. So as I'll think about it right now is that it really saves me a lot of time, because instead of trying to change the outer reality, I'm going to get to the core shift the belief, and then the other reality on so many areas will change. So I think that that would be also my answer to that. And yes, indeed, it doesn't have to take you don't have to be in talk about it in therapy for a long, long time, you can actually find it another modality that works with this is EMDR. It has a similar approach. And yeah, I think it's very, very effective in a short amount of time.



Yeah. Because, you know, people these days, I mean, we can't even sit through, you know, an entire movie, sometimes going onto your phone or being distracted by a million things. And now you want to just short, tic TOCs, or short reels are all like, it seems our brain is primed to, to have the attention span for Do you know what I mean? So it's like, if it's gonna take a week, a month, years, whatever, people will throw up their hands and say, Oh, forget it. Yeah,



yes. And in a way, I think in a way, that is a way for the brain to avoid the possible, confronting things that this might bring up. So there is this feeling of I know, this might bring up things from my childhood or things that I find really painful. And I believe that that thought of like, I don't have time for that is actually a resistance to that might not because part of the work is in the moment maybe uncomfortable. Yeah,



yeah. So it's your brain saving you that discomfort and and protecting you essentially, that's what the I mean, our brains protect us, right? And so if, if the brain feels like, Oh, this is going to, no, I don't want to do this, it's going to be too uncomfortable. I'm going to protect you, we're not going to do it at all. If we compare it to like, the physical body. Like if, if you you were on a ledge, and it was a 10 foot drop, your brain would be like, Nope, because you're gonna probably hurt yourself, if you go down and jump off this 10 foot drop instead, why don't we take the long way around and use the stairs? To save to save ourselves? Right? So it's kind of the same thing. It's like the brain is just protecting you from what could be something that's uncomfortable that is going to make you do something you don't want to do.



Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah,



that makes a lot of sense. Okay, what is myth? Number five? I feel like this is a big one.



Myth number five, is that the ones from your family that you can't change it? So this is a big one. And there are studies on that believes genetically or trauma genetically gets passed on, right? So there is and the experience is I just I've grown, this is who I am, we, my, my whole family lives this way. It's important for me to protect that. And I understand. And really, you know, sometimes when you change a certain belief or attitudes towards something, it might be that people are confused for a moment, or that it changes your dynamics with your parents or with your family or with your loved ones. And that fear, again, is underneath that as well. It is the most beautiful and empowering thing, I think to to realize that you can write your own story. That's how I think about it, that the family line comes with a certain story. But if you are feeling a desire to change that sort of story in some way that you actually can, and very often it actually changes the dynamic also for the better, very often it releases or unleashes things in the family that are actually really healing not only for you, but also for the people around you. Yeah,



yeah. So again, things can change. beliefs can change. So I'm going to recap myths one through five you'll let me know if I Don't get them. Right. So myth one is their thoughts just stuck on repeat. Myth number two, you just replace them with more positive thoughts. Myth number three can't change them hardwired? Sorry, I'm too old to change can't What is it? You can't teach an old dog new tricks, right? Exactly that myth number four, they take a lifetime to change. And myth number five, the ones from your family can't change. So all those are myths. So I think we've busted all of them. Now, a lot of people may think, oh, boy, subconscious mind, the brain. This all sounds a little too out there for me. So what would you say to folks who are resistant to go there? Because they think it's a little too out there?



Yeah. I would actually ask, like, imagine that you would see that as a belief, first of all, so that you would say, okay, I can, for a moment just play an experiment and the things that I see as true to my life. Let me see you this. Okay. That's the that's really the rooted belief that I have right now. And then play around with what if you would say, Yes, I'm going to completely subscribe to that idea. I'm going to think that limiting beliefs can be changed in a subconscious in one session, just like Melinda just said, like, what could possibly be bad about that? How could that be a bad thing? And that would actually be fierce around that whole idea. Now, maybe when you've determined that, why not give it a try? Like why you don't have to completely believe that it works that way. But why not give yourself the benefits of you know, give this whole idea to benefit of the doubt and just say like, you know what, I can experiment with it, I can just give it a go. And when a belief comes up, or when something comes up in your life that doesn't go the way that you wanted, or you have something that really triggers you in some way. Why not write down what you think the thoughts and the beliefs are that underneath that, remember that idea of we have the circumstance, the outer reality, and then we have the thoughts that creates a feeling the feeling creates an action and the action creates a result? So what if you would slightly change your foot around it? And just give yourself that that play of okay, well, good, what would that actually do to me?



Yeah, well, I love that. Can you say that again? So you start with the external, and then it goes to your thoughts. Go ahead. You complete it, because I thought that was really great.



Yeah, yeah. So yeah, so the external is a circumstance, the reality is the bank account that doesn't have enough money, the arm that hurts the I don't know. I don't know, boyfriend who is not calling like, I don't care, like whatever that is the business, as we said, the course that isn't failing. And then the thinking, okay, that's the circumstance. Now, what is my thought about him. And this is such a great first thing to do to become aware of the thought about it, you know, that these thoughts goes so fast, because you've practiced that a lot. So these wires in that house that is wired in a brain that is just happening so fast, that you might perceive them as the truth, but slow down, and just write down this is the thought, the foot creates a feeling or an emotion. And that emotion creates an action. So as we just said, If I feel a little disappointed and powerless, I might not take action, or I'll stop my business at all my online course thing at all. And that action creates results. So here's where you can see that the belief the forts, in the hands created the river, so not the circumstance.



I love it. I think that's great. And what a fantastic takeaway I was going to ask, okay, what do you really want the listeners to take away and I have to tell you, I think you beat me to the punch, because that's great. And it also shows, like we say, in the physical therapy world, I work with a lot of people with chronic pain, that the brain has plasticity, the brain can change. Yes. And it's not just in the physical. So what you're saying is you have these circumstances, here's your initial thought about it, if we can change that thought, perhaps the emotion connected to that which we sort of comes out of that amygdala area of the brain, that can be changed, that can be altered because the brain is plastic, and it can change. And I think that's such a great way to button up this conversation. I love it. I'm gonna think about that. Now. Every time something happens in and I have a thought and be like, Okay, wait a second. So Slow it down. What if I thought about it differently, I may have a different feeling. But then most importantly, your action will be different. So instead of saying my corset and tell I'm going to curl up in a ball on my bed and never leave, instead, it's my Corsten cell. Okay? Let me that could be an opportunity for me to go in and look at it, maybe jigger things up and see if I can, I can change things to make it a little bit more appealing. So then your action would be way different. So instead of curling up in a ball, it's let's edit this course, which are two very different things.



Exactly, exactly. Yeah, that's it. I love that.



Yeah, I love it. I think that's awesome. Now, where can people find you if they want to learn more about you, they want to work with you. Go ahead.



Great. Okay, so you can find me on all the socials, you can find my website, which is where Linda If you're listening, maybe not so easy. to spell that one, I do have a little mini course on how to shift any limiting belief. And I made a tiny URL, it's just to make things easy. And that would be Any limiting belief altogether. So little sentence, that one, I think is a great one to have. It has a couple of videos and some PDFs, where all of the things that we just talked about gets explained a little bit more in depth and just give you a simple process to do it or try it out for yourself.



Awesome. And we'll have all the links at podcast at healthy, wealthy So that you can go on and click and take a take this limiting shift any limiting belief course. So we will have all of the and links to all of your social media and everything else as well. Now, before we go the last question, which is when I asked everyone, and that's knowing where you are now in your life, and in your career, what advice would you give to your younger self?



Yes. So I would really tell my long younger self to be more trusting of the things that I felt that I want to I've been always doing things I would say kind of against the status quo. I've even had a teacher one who said you always have to make the impossible possible. And now it would be like okay, trust yourself, and then it's gonna turn out okay. And even if somebody else doesn't believe it, or doesn't see it, if you have the vision or the idea or the feeling or the impulse, that is the thing to follow. So that is what I would say. I think



that is wonderful advice for your younger self and for all of our listeners listening today. So Linda, thank you so much for coming on sharing all this info. And again, everyone will have all of her Linda's information at podcast at healthy wealthy So Linda, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.



Thank you, Karen. Really lovely to be here.



And everyone. Thanks so much for listening, have a great couple of days and stay healthy, wealthy and smart.