Healthy Wealthy & Smart

Healthy Wealthy & Smart: Where Healthcare Meets Business. The Healthy Wealthy & Smart podcast, hosted by world-renowned physical therapist Dr. Karen Litzy, offers a wealth of knowledge and expertise to help healthcare and fitness professionals take their careers to the next level. With its perfect blend of clinical skills and business acumen, this podcast is a one-stop-shop for anyone looking to gain a competitive edge in today's rapidly evolving healthcare landscape. Dr. Litzy's dynamic approach to hosting combines practical clinical insights with expert business advice, making the Healthy Wealthy & Smart podcast the go-to resource for ambitious professionals seeking to excel in their fields. Each episode features a thought-provoking conversation with a leading industry expert, offering listeners unique insights and actionable strategies to optimize their practices and boost their bottom line. Whether you're a seasoned healthcare professional looking to expand your skill set, or an up-and-coming fitness expert seeking to establish your brand, the Healthy Wealthy & Smart podcast has something for everyone. From expert advice on marketing and branding to in-depth discussions on the latest clinical research and techniques, this podcast is your essential guide to achieving success in today's competitive healthcare landscape. So if you're ready to take your career to the next level, tune in to the Healthy Wealthy & Smart podcast with Dr. Karen Litzy and discover the insights, strategies, and inspiration you need to thrive in today's fast-paced world of healthcare and fitness.
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Now displaying: April, 2020
Apr 27, 2020

On this episode of the Healthy, Wealthy and Smart Podcast, Jenna Kantor guests hosts and interviews Dr. Lex Lancaster on student loans. Dr. Lex Lancaster is a Doctor of Physical Therapy with a passion for performance, pelvic, and pediatric PT. Lex Lancaster also designs websites for health and wellness practitioners.

In this episode, we discuss:

-Lex’s experience navigating loan repayment as a new graduate

-Considerations for pre-DPT students when applying to schools

-Helpful tips to start tackling your student loan debt

-And so much more!



Lex Lancaster Twitter

FitBUX Website 

Lex Lancaster Website


A big thank you to Net Health for sponsoring this episode!  Learn more about Four Ways That Outpatient Therapy Providers Can Increase Patient Engagement in 2020!


For more information on Lex:

Alexis Lancaster is the graphic designer on the Healthy Wealthy and Smart podcast. She earned her Bachelor of Science degree in Biology, a Graduate Certificate in Healthcare Advocacy and Navigation, and graduated with her Doctor of Physical Therapy program at Utica College in Utica, NY. Lex would love to begin her career as a traveling physical therapist and hopes to eventually settle down in New Hampshire, where she aspires to open her own gym-based clinic and become a professor at a local college. She loves working with the pediatric population and has a passion for prevention and wellness across the lifespan. Lex also enjoys hiking, CrossFit, photography, traveling, and spending time with her close family and friends. She recently started her own graphic design business and would love to work with you if you have any design needs. Visit to connect with Lex.

For more information on Jenna:

Jenna Kantor (co-founder) is a bubbly and energetic girl who was born and raised in Petaluma, California. Growing up, she trained and performed ballet throughout the United States. After earning a BA in Dance and Drama at the University of California, Irvine, she worked professionally in musical theatre for 15+ years with tours, regional theatres, & overseas ( until she found herself ready to move onto a new chapter in her life – a career in Physical Therapy. Jenna is currently in her 3rd year at Columbia University’s Physical Therapy Program. She is also a co-founder of the podcast, “Physiotherapy Performance Perspectives,” has an evidence-based monthly youtube series titled “Injury Prevention for Dancers,” is a NY SSIG Co-Founder, NYPTA Student Conclave 2017 Development Team, works with the NYPTA Greater New York Legislative Task Force and is the NYPTA Public Policy Committee Student Liaison. Jenna aspires to be a physical therapist for amateur and professional performers to help ensure long, healthy careers. To learn more, please check out her website:


Read the full transcript below:

Jenna Kantor (00:00):

Hello. Hello. Hello. This is Jenna Kantor with Healthy, Wealthy and Smart. Really excited to be coming on and interviewing Dr. Lex. And what's really exciting is she is in the middle of this like name change possibility, so it may be Lancaster in the future or Brunel, her married name, we don't know. So you're getting an insight interview during the gray zone. Anyhow, want to thank you. First of all, thank you for coming on Lex for this interview. So for those who don't know, she actually works behind the scenes with Karen Litzy on this podcast and other things. She created the amazing logo for the women in PT summit and she's just kind of like really amazing on social media. For those who don't know, she's also a new grad who is dealing with loans. L. O. A. N. S. give me an L , give me an O, give me, ask him.

Jenna Kantor (00:57):

And that's right. That's what we are talking about. The fun, joyous roller coaster of student loans. Now before this. All right, before we go into details, right before we go into details of all your journey, if you were to compare the journey of loans, is it more the feeling that you get when you're going up the roller coaster and it's getting really, really high? You're like, Oh my gosh, am I going to live? Or is it that drop feeling like, Oh that first drop. So which one would you compare it to?


Lex Lancaster:

It's more like, I would say it's more like the drop, but that drop happens like halfway through your third year of PT school and then you're like, crap. Oh my God. I guess that's if you're lucky. Cause sometimes you don't think about loans until after you graduate and then the rollercoaster happens. Then I will say though that after that initial drop and you really freak out, it gets better.

Jenna Kantor (02:01):

You remind me of Oscar in the office where he's talking to an imaginary child or person saying it gets better, it gets better, it gets better. Well, I wanted to reach out to, Lex, when I reached out to her because she had done a post on social media about loans and that's what inspired this in the first place. And I thought, of course there's great experts out there like Joseph Bryan who is a wonderful resource for loans. But I wanted to get a student perspective on this from beginning to end. So what were the first steps you did before you even graduated for your loans?


Lex Lancaster:

So my first and second year, and really the first part of my third year, I didn't even think about loans. I kind of thought in the realm of it's just another drop in the bucket at this point. You know, I just didn't think like money. It's not that money wasn't factor.

Lex Lancaster (03:00):

It's that I had to pay for things. So it's not like I said, well, I can't really afford tuition, so I'll see you later. So it was just a drop in the bucket. And you know, I got to the point where $1,000, $2,000 books, whatever it ended up being, was just that drop in the bucket and halfway through my third year, aye, what to say? I saw a fitBux post about student loans and I think I actually got a bill from one of my loan companies and they had said, you owe money halfway through my third year of PT school. And I was like, Whoa, that is not okay. So I ended up contacting them and it was just a, you know, mistake on their end because we have that forgiveness for six months after we graduate or the deferment. However, at that point I was like, wow, this is what my monthly payment is going to be.

Lex Lancaster (03:56):

And that's what I had seen. And that was only one company. So at that point I kind of, I want to say it was January because I was on my last clinical and I reached out to fit bux and I just basically said, Hey, I don't know what I'm doing. It's all I said. And Joe was extremely helpful. I ended up setting up a class, an online class, because the third year, most programs, you're off campus. So with our program we were all on clinical and I figured my entire class was struggling the same way I was. So we set up a seminar, an online seminar with Joe and he went through, or Joseph, he went through every single aspect of student loans, what to expect, how to choose your plan, what works best, what doesn't work. And you know, for the students that attended, it was super helpful.

Lex Lancaster (04:44):

So we left that little online webinar with him with understanding definitions of the financial world. Because at that point in time, I had no idea what any of the terms meant, Mmm, you know, it's extended prepay, blah blah, blah, blah, blah. All of the things that they talk about that you need to understand before you choose your plan, make your payments and really get going on student loans. So at that point I felt okay. I was like, all right, we're good. We've got a plan and we understand the layout plan. And then what happened was I had to register for the NPTE, buy my study materials and for lack of better terms, wait around to get a job. So in that period of studying, cause I finished clinical in March, I took the test in July. So luckily for me, I had my online business to kind of keep me afloat to make a little bit of money within that period.

Lex Lancaster (05:49):

But without that, I mean I still took out, I put my NPTE on a credit card, I put my study books on a credit card and it was an interest free credit card. So I knew that I would be able to pay that off once I got a job. But I was still struggling because throughout college I did not save money. I had a job, I was a graduate assistant, you know, I had jobs, I just wasn't smart about it. I didn't save money throughout the entire process and that kind of put me in a position after I finished clinical. So while I was studying for the NPTE kind of saved some money, what I could save paid what I had to, but I did not pay on my loans. So I left my loan to start paying until the six months after I graduated.

Lex Lancaster (06:33):

And for lack of better terms, I cannot remember what it's called. But we have that six month period after we graduate that you don't have to pay on them. And then when six months hits you have to start. So I started at six months. But anyway, long story short, I met with Joe probably four more times. Just I think it was four times we went through every possible scenario after I got a job so that we could decide what, how much money I should be paying each month. And we went through the technology on the Fitbux website. That helps you decide what payment plan is best for you. So really fit bux helped me the most. I did not, there's a lot of podcasts out there that you can listen to, but I stuck with fit bux because it was one, it was free to talk to them and to Joseph pretty much, you know, he found time for me to talk and I really appreciated that.

Lex Lancaster (07:29):

So I guess like I said, it was the roller coaster. The drop of the roller coaster was when I got that bill and then it continued dropping until about November when I made my first payment. And now at this point I don't even think about it. I don't see the money, the money that I pay toward my student loans, I don't even see it. It just goes into an account. My student loans pay by themselves and I don't do anything. I'm on automatic payments. So now I'm kind of at that coasting I guess. So, yeah. Well and you post what, what? I forgot what your post was. It was a good one that was very pointed. I'm trying to like look it up literally during the podcast interview cause that's the way to go. Well. So discover sent me an email cause I have a credit card with discover, that's who I took out my interest rate credit card with last spring. And they sent me an email and I just said, are you paying too much in student loans? And I got the email and I just kind of chuckled and I was like, how'd you know? So I posted on my story. Mmm. Basically, how are you a mind reader discover? And then I've said, you know, I do pay, I pay $1,400 a month right now for student loans. Mmm. And I basically said that my payment is semi aggressive. It's aggressive by any means. If that was the case, I'd be paying close to two.

Jenna Kantor (09:00):


Lex Lancaster (09:01):

But then I had said, did you know that income based repayment is not guaranteed? Your forgiveness after 2025 years is not guaranteed. The interest rate on that can go up. Mmm. Or the tax rate on that can go up. Excuse me. And you have no idea what that tax rate can be. And when you forgive your loans, you have to pay that tax right then and there. So the way that I just look at it and everyone always says to me, well why are you paying so much on your student loans? They always question it. They're like, well you don't have to do that. But in reality, you know, I'm just like, yeah I am paying a lot my student loans, but I have to do it. Cause if I didn't do it, I'd be putting the same amount of money in a savings account to pay the taxes 25 years later. So I was frustrated at that. I think that day I was semi frustrated just because I had gotten an email and I was like, how'd you know?

Jenna Kantor (09:58):

Yeah, I am paying a lot. This is your post. It was sad realizations of being an adult on a high deductible plan. I pay greater than 500 a month for health insurance. I still need to pay 6,000 out of pocket before my insurance will help me. What a broken system. And I don't have a suggested solution because this is me right now. And you showed your brain like, Oh yeah, that was, that was my one about health insurance. Oh, that was health insurance. Oh my gosh. That's my health insurance. But I gotta pull up my story. I have it somewhere. Well that one's, that's another one. Another, another thing. If you want to reach out to her, that was a sidebar. It was smooth and yet totally off topic. It was so good. I'm glad you brought it up. It just felt so good to go there. So would you say you're out of that stress zone, you're out of that stress zone. Now that you have that plan going for you with your loans, you're just like, we're good.

Lex Lancaster (10:59):

You know? Yes and no. Yes, because I don't see the money come out. I know it's being paid. I know I pay a little bit over what I need to pay, so I'm paying it off a little bit more aggressive than I need to. And I'm on a 20 year plan right now, but my goal is to pay it off in about seven or eight years. I would say that because I'm transitioning from travel PT to permanent I'm back on the nervous train because with travel PT you make more money. You do pay more because you have a Oh, a tax home and you have a, you know, you duplicate your living expenses, so you do pay more in rent, et cetera, but you make more money because you don't have that permanent home and you're away from home. So I used my travel salary, most of the, I think I was putting close to 50%

Lex Lancaster (11:53):

Toward loans in the beginning. But then as soon as I found out that I was not going to be a travel PT anymore, I stopped. So I backed off. I took my monthly payment and my required payments and I decided to pay about $250 extra for both companies each month. So that's not even close to what I was paying. So I'm like I said, I'm back on that. I'm a little bit nervous. I don't know how I'm going to afford living. I don't know. You know, because I have a mortgage for a loan payment and my fiance Kyle also has a mortgage for a loan payment. He's also a PT. So we're both just kind of at the point where we're paying our required payment, paying a little bit over, and then we're going to see how it goes. Well, like I said, I don't see that.

Lex Lancaster (12:44):

I don't physically pay it every month, so I feel like mentally it makes me feel better. I'm not watching the money go out of my account more or less. It's already paid. I don't have to worry about it. It's paid on by the due date and then that's that. Mmm. So yeah, I would say talk to me in about two months and we'll see how I'm feeling when everything changes and I transitioned to a permanent.

Jenna Kantor (13:36):

That's hard too because when you are graduating, I did see this with a lot of my fellow classmates. Everyone had this, Oh, I'm going to go for this, this, I'm talking about niches. You know what they want to treat, and I saw a lot of people just start working for anyone and I think that's because when they see that number, those loans you owe, it's just you get, it's like, I need a job right now. I need a job right now. I don't talk to me. I just need a job I need. And it's really unfortunate and you're experiencing that now you're going, okay, now I want to go for what I'm dreaming of, like my dreams and doing that. You're seeing how that's causing that anxiety again about the financial situation, which is just, it just sucks what we owe in school. It's just horrible. And then even with what we get reimbursed for us physical therapists for most of us get paid on the low end as new grads, which I think that's just, I think those words are just an excuse for employers to offer lower pay. That's it. They were like, Oh, new grad. Cool. I can only afford to hire new grads right now. Right. So that's bad. That's bad. That's feeding into a really bad system there. That's my opinion. But that being said, it just, and so then you're just barely surviving with that. But then if you want to go off and do your own thing, if you are really going to be listen to your loans, you want to do it for 20 years. Exactly. More different 20 years cause you're like, Oh I need that.

Lex Lancaster (14:51):

Mean I think a lot of people do that. It's scary. Right? But then we get burned out.

Karen Litzy (15:05):

And on that note we're going to take a quick break to hear from our sponsor net health. This episode is brought to you by net health net health outpatient EMR and billing software. Redoc powered by X fit provides an all in one software solution with guided documentation workflows to make it easy for therapists to use and streamline billing processes to help speed billing and improve reimbursement. You could check out net hell's new tip sheet to learn four ways that outpatient therapy providers can increase patient engagement in 2020 at

Lex Lancaster (15:39):

No I never see this money, but I hate my life. And that's, and that's the thing. It's like, you know, Kyle and I are starting a cash based PT on the side. Our side hustle. We are going to start that because we just want to, we want to treat how we want to treat and not be dictated by insurance, but that's a talk for another day. Mmm. And you know, that's, it's great for us. And you know, to be honest, we would, we would burn the ships and just do our cash business right now and just do that and not have a full time job. But we can't because we need to have money to pay our loans because the last thing we need to do is default. And you know, I guess our method of payment was based on travel PT, not based on permanent and a cash business.

Lex Lancaster (16:22):

So when we moved our loans from federal to private, we have to pay that payment. Now income-based isn't a thing. So we're required to wait. We need to wait because we need to have guaranteed income in order to not default on our loans. But like I said, as soon as you put out a budget, the loans are 1400 rent is 1800 and then you add food and you know, a little bit, you have to have fun money, a little bit of fun money. And that's almost 85% of our new salary. Yeah. So I don't, I don't really know how yet to fix that because what is your option? You know, you can't just make things, you can't make rent less expensive, you can't make your loans less expensive and they're not going anywhere. So unfortunately, I think that this is a scenario that a lot of people face out of school if they don't choose trouble. And that's why income-based is the most feasible. That makes sense because how else do you live on that? You know, I was just a grad student income. Right, right. You know, how else do you live? You don't have money to pay on those loans. And some States don't let you pay. Don't let you practice on that temporary license. Like New York state, a lot. A couple of my friends practice on temp licenses, so they were able to, you know, build up some

Lex Lancaster (17:50):

Money. But if you're not part of those States that allow you to do that, you can't practice until you pass your NPTE. So it's hard to build up that savings account. So that's one recommendation I have for anybody that's in school who's listening to this. Make sure you're saving money, whether it's 10 bucks a week, five bucks a week, it doesn't really matter throughout school. Save money and just put it somewhere and don't touch it because eventually you're going to need it. Even if you don't think you will neet it. And even if you think it's completely out of this world that you'll ever have a situation where you need a little bit of extra cash but save that money. Mmm. And for lack of better terms, I would not use it until you absolutely need to start the savings account now and don't wait until you have a job.

Jenna Kantor (18:37):

There's no reason why you can't save five bucks a week. Yeah, yeah, no, that, that does make perfect sense. And that's definitely been something that I've leaned on is having a savings account myself. So I get what you're saying. Yeah. And for anyone listening, I mean, if you might find yourself going, Oh, but where's the answer? It's the whole process of this interview itself is not necessarily to give you all the straight up answers. I really would like to just resort to the fact that it's good to know you're not alone. Yeah. And it's okay to talk about this with people. It's okay to be frustrated with your pay. It's okay to be freaking out about your loans. It's okay to feel burnt out because you're working somewhere you don't like just to get escape those loans. All of that's okay. I mean, this is unfortunately a very common struggle amongst new grads and something that the APTA is working, really trying to figure out how they can address this issue.

Jenna Kantor (19:34):

Cause really at the end of the day, it's the schools that are choosing to charge you guys as much. It's the Dean and it's not just the PT, it's the entire school that's saying, okay, let's increase the amount so we can make a new building or whatever they're going to use the money for. So with that increase in cost, it's all by school. That's where you need to look first in my opinion. Yeah. You need to look first. The APTA it’s like how we treat patients. You know, we sit there and we're treating the symptoms, you know, or do you look at what caused it all along? So same idea. And if you, I want to just focus on your own plate right now on what to do for yourself. Absolutely. If you really want to make a larger difference, it's talking to your institution and become the voice which works.

Lex Lancaster (20:28):

But if that's something you just made up right now that speaks to you? Well it makes sense because I have, I have people that I know that literally they graduated PT school with less than 70 grand of loans and that was putting everything on within a loan that was not paying for part of school out of pocket. They literally graduated with that much because their school cost that little bit of money. And when I heard those numbers and I'm, meanwhile I graduated after undergrad and graduate school. I was at about $220,000 is where I'm at. I don't know where I'm at today because I haven't looked at it to be completely honest cause it's like I'm just paying one month at a time. But I just, I was baffled. How did you get out of school with that little of loans?

Lex Lancaster (21:24):

Like how did you do that? And they basically said that when they chose a PT school, they chose a cheaper school and you know, I, I loved my school, absolutely loved my school. I would have not wanted to go anywhere else. That program alone has, you know, changed me as a person. I love Utica college. So I'm not saying that I would choose to go somewhere else. However, I was so baffled that the tuition is so different. I had no idea. I literally had no idea that different DPT schools have different such drastically different costs and that particular person almost has her loans paid off and she's, I think, Hmm. Five or six years out of school and she barely had to pay anything. Yeah. So I guess so what you're saying is so true. You know, we have to talk to the right people.

Lex Lancaster (22:22):

You know, why is this and it's an increased by, what is it like one or 2% for a year? It goes up. I have not kept up on that, but I do know that what our parents paid alone was significantly less than what we paid. Yes. So it's just, yeah, it's a really vicious, right now it's bad. It's bad. So, I mean, you could, you could sit there and think it's the loan company to get back. I'm like, no, it's your school. It's just school. They're the ones who said you need to pay this much. We don't get reimbursed that much to be able to pay that in a reasonable amount of time to live our lives. Yeah. That's very sad. It is very sad. And when our degree went up to the doctorate level, our reimbursement didn't increase. So it made it when we required more school. Yeah. Our reimbursement is actually now going down propose anyways, that 8% correct. That it's, that's for specific situations and it's not for sure yet. I say this now, but it's still being fought. We're not doing well in fighting it, but I believe it's not set in stone yet. Like I said, I don't know when they go out, so I'm curious.

Lex Lancaster (23:46):

The state of things will affairs will be at that point then. Yeah. The reimbursement doesn't reflect, we're just not paid enough reimbursement wise. So employers don't really have a choice. Yeah, it's, yeah, it stinks. It's a shame. It is a shame.

Jenna Kantor (24:06):

Well, thank you so much for coming on. I really appreciate it. Do you have any last words you would like to give just regarding loans and the stress of it that you would like to give to anybody listening? It's just really feeling helpless right now.

Lex Lancaster (24:20):

Mmm. My biggest piece of advice, well, I'll say two things. The first thing is, like I said before, start saving money. Now. Don't wait. And my second thing is reach out to the people who know what they're talking about. Don't try to solve problems yourself because you're going to waste time and you might even waste money. Mmm. Fit bux is completely free and it's a shameless pitch because of how much they've helped me. They are free to talk to. If you have questions please reach out to them. Joseph is incredible and his teammates are incredible and I still do not know what I'm doing down to the T. I use their program to decide what I'm doing. Reach out to those people. Don't waste your time trying to figure it out yourself and

Lex Lancaster (25:12):

Understand that it does get better. As awful as it seems when you first start out, it does get better and you start to figure out a plan and everything just kind of goes from there. Don't feel like you're stuck. Reach out to people. Twitter is amazing. You're not alone. A lot of people are going through this, probably every single PT in existence. So just reach out. Don't feel like you're alone ever. And yeah, I think that's it.

Jenna Kantor (25:41):

I love it. Thank you for coming on. How can people find you on social media or email?

Lex Lancaster (25:47):

So my email right now is and on social media. I am @LexLancaster_ So you can reach out to me there.

Jenna Kantor (25:57):

I love. Good underscore is nothing like a quality underscore. Well, on that note, thank you so much for coming on. Thank you everyone for tuning in and have a wonderful day.


Thanks for listening and subscribing to the podcast! Make sure to connect with me on twitter, instagram  and facebook to stay updated on all of the latest!  Show your support for the show by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts!

Apr 20, 2020

In this episode of the Healthy, Wealthy and Smart Podcast, I welcome Jennifer Thompson on the show to discuss how to adapt your business during the COVID-19 Pandemic. Jennifer Thompson has served as President of Insight Marketing Group since 2006 and helps physicians and private medical practices throughout the U.S. attract and retain patients and rock-star employees. Jennifer has 20+ years experience in marketing and business development for start-up organizations and as a marketing director for a Fortune 500 company.

In this episode, we discuss:

-Understanding the Impact of Online Reviews on Your Bottom Line

-Why You Need to Provide Cross-Generation Communication Training to Your Staff

-The Death of Social Media Marketing and What to Do Next

-5 Ways to Create Big ROI with a Small Budget

-And so much more!


Insight Marketing Group Website

Dr. Marketing Tips Twitter

Insight Marketing Group LinkedIn

Dr. Marketing Tips Podcast


InsightMG Podcast: Ep. 193 | Understanding the Impact of Online Reviews on Your Practice

InsightMG Podcast: Ep. 221 | How to Get Started on Telemedicine in a Hurry

InsightMG Podcast: Ep. 219 | How to Communicate During a Health Scare or Natural Disaster

Insight Courses 


A big thank you to Net Health for sponsoring this episode!  Learn more about Four Ways That Outpatient Therapy Providers Can Increase Patient Engagement in 2020!


For more information on Jennifer:

Jennifer Thompson has served as President of Insight Marketing Group since 2006 and helps physicians and private medical practices throughout the U.S. attract and retain patients and rock-star

employees. Jennifer has 20+ years of experience in marketing and business development for start-up organizations and as a marketing director for a Fortune 500 company.


In 2010 & 2014, Jennifer was elected to the Orange County Board of County Commissioners where she made decisions that impacted over 1.2 million citizens and 60+ million visitors. Jennifer was often recognized for her use of social media and community outreach in her elected role. In 2013, Jennifer’s company helped a client win the Social Madness competition in Central Florida and go on to place 8th nationally.

Jennifer is a serial entrepreneur who wakes up every day at 4 am ready to change the world. She has been invited to share her knowledge at multiple MGMA association meetings and conferences, the Florida Bones Conference, the American Academy of Orthopaedic Surgeons and AOA-36 on the topics of social media, reputation management, and leadership. She is also the co-host of the DrMarketingTips Podcast available on iTunes.


Read the full transcript below:

Introduction (00:07):

Welcome to the healthy, wealthy and smart podcast. Each week we interview the best and brightest in physical therapy, wellness and entrepreneurship. We give you cutting edge information you need to live your best life, healthy, wealthy, and smart. The information in this podcast is for entertainment purposes only and should not be used as personalized medical advice. And now here's your host, Dr Karen Litzy.

Karen Litzy (00:41):

Welcome back to the podcast. I am your host Karen Litzy. And in today's episode our discussions around covid-19 and what health care businesses, physical therapists, physician practitioners, what they can do to continue to help their clients and their patients during this time. So today I am so happy to have on the program, Jennifer Thompson. She has served as president of insight marketing groups since 2006 and helps physicians, physical therapists and private medical practices throughout the United States attract and retain patients and rockstar employees. Jennifer has 20 plus years of experience in marketing and business development for startup organizations and as a marketing director for fortune 500 companies. Now in today's episode we talk about how healthcare companies need to change the way they're doing things during the covid-19 pandemic. Jennifer's very specific and goes through certain phases that your company must do to continue to help people in your community. We also talk about understanding the impact of online reviews.

Karen Litzy (01:57):

This is during a pandemic and once we get through this, why you need to provide cross generation communication training to your staff, the quote unquote death of social media marketing and what to do next and then ways to create big ROI or return on investment with a small budget. I'm telling you, everyone take out your pen and paper, your computer, take notes. Everything in this episode is practical. You could start doing it today and for those of us who are anxious or struggling because maybe we're not seeing the volume of patients we used to and our incomes are starting to see that, starting to reflect that most of the things that Jennifer is suggesting we can do takes very little or $0 million to achieve it. So I want to thank Jennifer for her time and her expertise. And if you are a health care practice owner, you must listen to this podcast from beginning to end.

Karen Litzy (03:12):

So much good information there. So a huge thanks to Jennifer Thompson and if anyone has any questions, you could go to the podcast show notes at You've got all of Jennifer's information there, all of the things that we talked about, one click will take you to it. So a big thank you to Jennifer and of course I want to thank you, the listeners for tuning in each week. We would love it if you could leave us a review on Apple podcasts and tell your friends, tell your family thank you so much and enjoy.

Karen Litzy (03:51):

Hi Jennifer, welcome to the podcast. I'm happy to have you on and I feel like you're here at like the perfect time.

Jennifer Thompson (03:58):

Absolutely. Thank you for having me. It's great to be virtual and all of us are kind of hunkering down at home, but this is a great way to pass some time.

Karen Litzy (04:07):

Exactly. And like I said in your bio, you have helped physicians and private medical practices attract and retain their patients. You've been doing this for a very long time, but I have to think the recent pandemic has kind of shifted things a little bit for medical practices. So before we get into the kind of the bulk of what we had originally planned to talk about a couple of weeks ago, I would love to get your professional outlook on marketing, on finding patients on how we can do that in these times of this pandemic.

Jennifer Thompson (04:50):

Yeah. And I think that like it's just the right place at the right time. So when all of this was starting to come to fruition and it looked like we were going to be on restrictions and stay at home orders our team, that really shifted very quickly to reach out to all of our clients and say, Hey, look, we want to be a resource to you. You're not set up yet on telemedicine, but let's get you set up. So we've had the opportunity to help about two dozen practices get up and going with the Titan telemedicine solution in about 24 hours. And so once we got them all going and everybody's kinda rocking and rolling right now we started shifting the conversation to, okay, well how can we take telemedicine now as an option? Like a tool in your toolbox and market that and how do you market the practice when you're only, you know, maybe you have or you have limited hours or you have limited access and maybe you still have providers coming into the office, but you know, it's just a different environment.

Jennifer Thompson (05:50):

And the telemedicine in general is a different environment. So I think the first phase of how you attract, retain patients in this new kind of unchartered territory first is you got to do the stuff that's immediate and you have to kind of put out all of these immediate fires. And so that's like, you've got to update your website. You've got to reach out to your existing patients to let them know you're still seeing patients. And maybe it's just a different method. You've got to go out and update all your Google my business listings to include telemedicine, to include it in kind of changes to your hours. So there's some immediate things that you have to do. Of course you've got to update all of your social media and you need to, you know, start thinking about one, you want to let people know you're doing telemedicine.

Jennifer Thompson (06:39):

But then second is you want to figure out how is this going to look for the short term after I've put out the immediate fire, how am I going to now get more patients in? One area that we've seen a bunch of success in is going old school, you know, like your referring partners. And there's so many times where we'll send somebody from the office over to our referring partners to bring them lunch or to kind of build those relationships and whatnot. Well, we can't do that anymore. So now there's only one industry left in the entire world that actually has fax machines. And I just sent out faxes this morning for a couple of clients where we're sending out big bulk faxes to all of their referring partners from their EHR. They're pulling it out, pulling down that data.

Jennifer Thompson (07:28):

And we're sending out kind of, Hey, we're open and accepting telemedicine appointments. And so yeah, there's some things that you have to do that are thinking outside of the box. And that was kind of the immediate, and then the second piece is what do you do now to keep yourself relevant? And so I was on a call yesterday morning with a bunch of orthopedic surgeons. We always meet at like 6:30 in the morning because that's always pre-surgery. And we were talking about the numbers of, you know, new patients versus returning patients and how are we like balancing the telemedicine appointments in terms of other appointments. And it looked as if the marketing, it's good right now, you know, you want a market that you have this as a tool in your toolbox, but it wasn't necessarily driving new patient counts. The telemedicine option, what was happening is your internal sales, your internal folks are the ones that are driving telemedicine appointments because you're looking at those followup appointments, people coming in for you know, second and third appointments and trying to get your, the ones that you at the end of the patients that you already had on the sheet and getting them into a telemedicine appointment instead of a standard.

Jennifer Thompson (08:41):

And then now, Oh, we're looking at kind of the big issue with practices is that not only do folks need to know we're doing telemedicine, but for most practices, still maybe not in New York city, but for most practices, you know, in areas not as populated. They're still up and running for business. You know, they're still doing emergency surgery and things of that nature. So how do you let patients know that you are up and running and do it in a way that's memorable or that is going to cut through all the noise and the clutter. And so like before when I was saying you gotta to put out the fire, you put out the fire, the immediate. So part of the immediate plan is you need to put a red bar and we say red because Red's a good emergency color that in healthcare you really shouldn't be using.

Jennifer Thompson (09:26):

You put a red bar at the very top of your website and you go straight to your covid-19 resources or any of your important announcements. But that kind of red bar, you know, people aren't going to your website to check it out to make you relevant. So now we need to think about how do you brand yourself and how do you brand yourself in a way using social media. And because social media is still free and if you're good at it, you'll get some traction. And, I talk a lot about this idea that social media is dead and I will say social media, if you're just on it, it is dead now. But if you're in it, it's very much alive. And so now's your chance to be in social media and to get your message across. And what I mean by that is we have a group this morning orthopedic group who wanted to really get the point across that they're still open, put together a great little video of a doctor with an athlete who was in there for a knee injury.

Jennifer Thompson (10:24):

She signed the waiver, the release on it. They put together a great video showing how they're treating patients. So they're both in their mask. He's washing his hands, you know, and he does the quick exam. Then he washes his hands and she sits in a chair. He's about 10 feet away. They've got the video, they've got some music to it, and it's just, Hey, we're here and we're open. We have a PT practice that we're working with. They've started doing telemedicine across 26 different office locations and all day, every day they're sending us videos and great photos of them in practice showing how the physical therapists are doing their job with a computer screen and showing us the different things that we're doing. So it's just how can you be relevant now and kind of spreading that message and having fun with it. Because when people are at home right now, they're either watching TV where they're scrolling through their feeds. So how can you create that thumb stopping content?

Karen Litzy (11:27):

Excellent. And I love in the putting out the fires, the Google my business listings saying that you're doing tele-health. Hello. I have to do that today. The moment we end this call, I am going to Google my business and putting that in there. I did not even think about that cause I'm thinking about, I'm calling all of my individual patients, I'm emailing people, I'm keeping people updated, I've updated my website, I've done all that stuff, but I have not done that piece so that I need to do that as that should have been my phase one. And then I love the kind of how you're getting new patients because it's true. I think you're seeing in a lot of practice, at least what I'm hearing is that you're existing patients are doing tele-health, but how can we get new patients on board? So do you have any advice, let's say a new patient contacts me, I do a free 20 minute consult with them, kind of explaining tele-health. Are there any sort of must have pointers or any way that we can close that to help that prospective patient feel confident that they're going to get what they need?

Jennifer Thompson (12:37):

Yes, and I think that, I think part of that falls on you making sure that the patient is ready for what this new experience is. But we were so my teams, we do marketing, so we have, we're in the trenches on the marketing side of things and then we have a training side of the business. And so we were looking at updating a patient experience training that we've got currently. And then, how do you update it kind of with this telemedicine and telehealth component to it? Because we've been having a bunch of conversations about, it feels a little bit like the wild wild West and when the regulatory environment was kind of opened up, we would see providers and some of them, a lot of the ones we would work with. And we would call and say, Hey, do you want us to get you set up?

Jennifer Thompson (13:22):

And they would be like, no, I've already got this covered. I'm doing it on FaceTime, I'm doing it in WhatsApp. And we were like, no, you've got like they may be, they may be allowing you to make some mistakes right now just to get through this. But you've got to train at your patients from the get go of how you want this. And so you can't take somebody from a FaceTime call to later on doing a HIPAA compliant portal that they have to log into a remember a password. So we want to train our patients from day one. So I think that's part of the decision that you as a provider have to make is what's going to work for you. Not just for today but for long term. And then from the training side of our business, of course, we're always looking for a way to have fun with it from patient experience we put together and I'll send the student, cause we put together these great, I think they're great videos a day in the life from the provider's standpoint.

Jennifer Thompson (14:14):

And it's a series of tips of things that you should remember. Like for example, you shouldn't drive your car and do a telemedicine appointment. You shouldn't. That seems reasonable. You shouldn't, you should tell everybody in your house that you're with patients so they shouldn't be walking around in the background in their underwear because these things happen. I was going to say like it seems basic but it's not. Yeah, you gotta be patient with people because they're also going through this experience for the first time. Just because you’re not in the same room doesn't mean you have to shout. They can hear you. You've got to remember that you might have a great connection and you have, you know, your wifi is strong, but you may be talking to somebody and they're receiving it differently. And so we're all going through this for the first time together. And so I think understanding, like just taking a step back and remembering that this is unchartered territory. And so you know, are there things to pay attention to? Yes. But I think it starts with the provider and how you prepare the patient for that visit.

Karen Litzy (15:24):

Excellent. I love that. Yes. And definitely send those videos along and we'll put them in the show notes. At under this episode because I think people will definitely get a lot of value from them. And again, I can't believe you have to say like don't walk around in your underwear, do you as you're doing that. But like, like you said, the videos are made for a reason. So people were doing it.

Jennifer Thompson (15:52):

We had a provider this week or last week send something in. It was like a picture cause we asked everybody like send them photos of you doing telemedicine so we can use them for things. And he sent a photo and he had a shirt was like stained up and like, Oh over here. And we're like, doc, no, we didn't see patients day to day like this. So you can't see patients that way either.

Karen Litzy (16:17):

Yeah. And I think that's something that's really important I think because people think, Oh well I'm at home. I can be super casual, but you don't want to be casual to the point of a stained shirt and looking unprofessional. Right. There are ways to be casual, whether it be like smart athletes, your wear or a pair of jeans and a top, but you still want to look presentable because especially if this is a new patient who's seeing you on telehealth as a physical therapist when this is over, maybe you want them to continue to see you. So those first impressions still make a difference. So thank you for bringing that up.

Jennifer Thompson (16:54):

They absolutely do. And I think people just forget that. And you know, I think, I think it's okay to have fun with it too. Like, you've got to be professional and you need to be the regular provider that you always are. But from a marketing standpoint, a little levity goes a long way right now. And what are some examples of a little levity going along way, if you have any off the top of your head? Yeah, so we're having a lot of fun with these kinds of patient experience, customer service, telemedicine training videos, which we put out our first round of them yesterday. So we're just trying to have fun with them, like make fun of how crazy it is. We have a group that has it's an orthopedic practice that has a lot of athletic trainers that they employ.

Jennifer Thompson (17:38):

So one of the athletic trainers, because nobody's in schools right now, has been furloughed. And so what we're doing with him is he's got like a four year old son at home and he's doing a daily series on social media as the athletic trainer, providing tips on how you can stay active and how you can prevent injuries at home. So he's doing things like yesterday, he's sitting on the couch with the son reading a book and he's like, Oh, I see now you're here. You know, welcome to my living room. Here I am at home with my four year old son, Jackson. We're going to read two pages of book and then we're going to do jumping jacks and then we're going to run in place. But he's doing a series just so it's fun and it's cute, but it gets a lot of engagement at the same time. He's like getting the main message across and it's something that people are stopping on and he got great traction. Maybe a thousand people looked at it yesterday. So, Hey, it's good traction, no money. And it's keeping them relevant. Plus it's keeping him relevant in a furloughed position.

Karen Litzy (18:38):

Yeah. Oh, how great. What a great idea. Love it. All right now something that I think we can talk about that can help your bottom line and that can help your practice grow is the impact of online reviews. And that is one thing that I don't think has had that much of a change even during this time. So can you speak to the importance of those online reviews and understanding them?

Jennifer Thompson (19:06):

Yeah, I absolutely can. So I think a lot of times practices will come to me and say, what if I could only focus on one thing because I don't have any money? What would be the one thing that you would tell me to do? And I hands down, always tell them that you should focus on getting as many reviews as you can and not because reviews you don't need just five star reviews, but you need lots of reviews. And I referenced back to a study that that we found that was, that was cited in the wall street journal and it was a study by a company named Juan plea. And I will send you the details of this for the show notes. So wildly does study of at 25,000 freestanding medical clinics. And one plea is actually a credit card processing company. So they were looking at cash based business for 25,000 freestanding medical clinics and they were tying the revenue to the cash based revenue, two star ratings and reviews.

Jennifer Thompson (20:11):

And so basically the couple of the top line, top level findings that they have are like medical centers that claims their listings on three or more of those websites, meaning like rate Indies, healthcare, vitals, Google, things of that nature. See 26% on average more revenue than practices that don't. So if there's ever been a reason for why you need to really pay attention to online reviews outside of, it's the number one way people choose their provider and if there's ever been a reason, it's because it's directly tied to your bottom line. Medical practices don't respond to online reviews, make 6% less than practices that do. And I'm not suggesting that you, that you respond in a way that violates HIPAA, but you can respond in a way that doesn't even identify that somebody is a patient and you can provide them a phone number that if they have something negative that they can follow up on, that's a 6% difference in revenue.

Jennifer Thompson (21:10):

And the one that really gets me the most is that practices that are rated five-star across the board actually see less revenue than practices that are afforded to a 4.9 star. And that's because we all realize that everybody is not perfect and the general public is not ignorant to that. So they expect that you're going to have some negative reviews. But it was just most interesting that you can see that that indirectly court, there was a direct correlation and you know, focusing on star ratings and then going into reviews. And for me it's just, it was just good data because everybody loves good data. Sure. And I got really involved in, I mean we identified that reviews were probably a place to focus our business. You know, years ago and things were just starting out. But I was in politics for years and when I was in politics it was right when social media was starting to take off.

Jennifer Thompson (22:09):

And just like medical providers are limited in what you can say and respond to. As an elected official, I was limited in the state of Florida to the sunshine law and the sunshine law prevented a lot of what I was allowed to say and not allowed to say online. So I got really interested in this whole like immediate feedback. Everybody thinks that they've got an opinion now and how these opinions get shared and then what you can and can't say to them. And then I would have doctors that would come to me and the doctors would say, Jen, I just want you guys to get rid of that negative review. And I referenced orthopedics cause I have a lot of orthopedic clients and this would happen a lot with them, but when it was a work comp case and somebody who didn't want to go back to work or if it was somebody that wanted opioids and they just couldn't get their fix, they would go online and just bash these doctors.

Jennifer Thompson (22:59):

And it got to the point that work comp aside, I would have to say to the doctor, doc, if you're consistently getting negative reviews, we've got to deal with what the root of the problem is and not keep dealing with the negative review themselves. And so we would start doing sentiment analysis on the reviews. So easy tool, especially if you're stuck at home and you've got some time on your hand, pull all of your reviews offline and take, hopefully you're using a service, you just couldn't get them in a spreadsheet. But look at the reviews and look at that data and figure out what it's telling you. Because usually it's not between the provider patient that somebody is upset, they're upset about a billion process or upset about a wait time. They're upset about some kind of follow through about some kind of customer service issue and that's how you can get to the bottom of your reviews and then make changes at the practice level that are actually going to have a real impact on what people are saying about you a lot in public. So I think reviews are just a plethora of good information. If we start thinking about how we can use them to make small adjustments at the practice.

Karen Litzy (24:05):

Great. And how do you recommend clinicians ask their patients for reviews?

Jennifer Thompson (24:15):

I used to say suck it up and just ask for them and then it got to the point that I would say, here's a card to tell your patients where you want them to go. Now I would prefer the clinician not even be involved in the process at all. I would prefer that every practice out there work with some kind of third party partner that has a secure file transfer where you can send your list over of patients on whatever frequency you want. And then that provider, that software sends it out to your patients and they ask your patient for reviews. And that way every single patient gets treated the same. And you guys focus on delivering the best care possible and stop worrying about, you know, I'm not a sales person, I just want to focus on patient care. I don't want this person cause they might've been upset or I forgot to ask, don't worry. Like do I think that you should just remove yourself from that equation and just find a way to automate the process.

Karen Litzy (25:11):

Nice. And what are some examples of third party partners to help automate that process?

Jennifer Thompson (25:17):

So I exclusively use now. But there's a bunch of them out there and so there's like review There's a bunch of them out there.

Karen Litzy (25:29):

Okay, cool. I've never heard of those, but that's really helpful. Thank you.

Jennifer Thompson (25:33):

Yeah, it is. It's a good way to get reviews and not to have to worry about it. And I will suggest this too, if you're at a practice that has like a lot of high volume have a page built on your website where you can capture internal feedback and then put signage up. Because that way if somebody is sitting in your waiting room and they're getting pissy that they'd been there too long, give them a way that they can get something off their chest so they feel like they need to go do, you know, leave you a negative review.

Karen Litzy (26:03):

Smart, smart. I like that. Right? So they can say, Oh, I've been here forever. Oh, I can complain here instead of complaining on Google or, Oh, fabulous. Exactly. Fabulous. So that could just be like a page on your website or something that says, Hey, if things weren't optimal for you, what can we do to help? Something like that. Feedback and feedback pages are very easy and everyone knows what to do. Yeah. Oh, excellent. Excellent. This is such good information. I'm taking so many notes. That's why I'm asking questions. I'm like, let's drill down into this further. All right. So something that seems like has been a constant theme from when we started about how do we kind of get through this pandemic in a way that's a positive for everyone involved and talking about reviews is communication. So let's talk about communicating with your staff and what do we need to provide within that communication training. I know it's a big question.

Jennifer Thompson (27:13):

So no, I love that you're asking it and I love that. I have some kind of relevant examples right now. So we do training for staff a lot around kind of employee engagement and everything kind of around how do you enhance the patient experience. So, and we put this together because of these docs saying, fix my reputation. And we said, you can't fix your reputation, so you focus on your people that plus unemployment's been at record lows. I mean, totally different conversation right now, but unemployment was at record lows. So how do you engage your employees? But we've been able to use the platform. So that's on demand training, delivering like 10 minutes a day type of thing. But we're using the platform to communicate with employees, but you don't need a platform to do this.

Jennifer Thompson (27:59):

So I think the very first step when you have a crisis is just to come up with a game plan and don't forget to think about it from a marketing perspective as well. You know, if you're going to communicate to your patients that you are offering telemedicine, don't assume that your employees know what's going on. And so, especially, if you're a large practice and you have people that work remotely or you're in multiple locations, consider putting together a weekly, maybe it's a video that you can send out. There's a great tool that I use all the time called loom L double O M love it free. You know, there's no reason not to and you don't have to house the videos. You can send it to people. Consider an email, like a regular email chain for those employees. But I've got a practice that I'm working with now that we actually got this off the ground this week and they have about 300 plus employees and they have multiple locations and a surgery center.

Jennifer Thompson (28:59):

And what we've done is basically we created a closed Facebook group for them and we are solely using it to communicate with employees that are now, some are in the practice, some are at home, some are furloughed. And the big concern is, especially in healthcare, is the bottom's not going to drop out from a revenue stream down the road. In fact, in a couple months, we're probably going to be working our tails off Saturdays and Sundays and nights because people are still going to want surgery. They're still gonna need their therapy. They're still, everything's going to happen. So you can't afford to lose furloughed employees. So now more than ever this practice in particular doubling down on communication and what they're doing is we're working so we manage the social for some of these accounts. So we're working on a patient facing social media, but now we're working on employee facing into closed groups.

Jennifer Thompson (29:56):

So now I'm reaching out to doctors saying, Hey, give me, send me a video offering words of encouragement. Show us how you're working from home. And then it's employees show us, you know, what you look like in your PPE. Show us how your eyes are having social distancing, talk to the people that aren't in the office and tell them how much you miss them. Celebrate birthday, celebrate anniversary. So it's this whole other thing. And I think that because social media allows us to create that sense of community and sometimes we lose that and not everybody's paying attention to emails and official communication. So it's working and it's a lot of work, but it's working and I think that it's going to do what it's supposed to do.

Karen Litzy (30:37):

Yeah, it's a great idea. And I think, I mean I have my own practice, I'm not an employee, but if I were an employee of a company and I saw that CEO or our owner getting on and giving us encouragement and at least acknowledging that we're still part of the company, even though maybe were furloughed or maybe were from home or now we're part time, I think that goes a long way. So I think that's a really a really great idea. And I'm assuming on these Facebook closed groups, you're not exchanging sensitive patient,

Jennifer Thompson (31:13):

Nothing like that. No, this is like top level and the CEO, this one, I've really got to commend him. He's being transparent, which I think is so important. Sharing the uncertainty of what's going on. You know, the practice applied for a PPE loan, they may not have gotten that PPE line. They've got about $3 million a month that they've got to deal with and overhead. So that's a big one. You know, as they typically give pay increases for working anniversaries, they had to tell everybody, you're not going to get these pay increases right now. We're going to deal with it in a couple months. Right now you're not. So just kind of communicating and answering questions that people are afraid to ask, but getting in front of it. And I think that that's a big kudo to that CEO.

Karen Litzy (31:56):

Fabulous. Good stuff. Good stuff. All right. Now we'll finish up with one more topic that I think we want to cover and again, relevant at this time, but ways to create some big return on investment or ROI with a small budget because I think now everyone's tightening their belts. We have, like you just said, what if you can't get these loans? What if you can't do X, Y, and Z? Everybody's budgets are shrinking. So how can, what are some ways that we can get some big impact on our shrinking or smaller budgets?

Jennifer Thompson (32:30):

All right. Couple of things that we're doing with our clients. So this is like real world may or may not be working, but we'll see. Cause we're pivoting like on an hourly basis sometimes yes. But first and foremost longterm strategies is double down on your online reviews. Thousand percent do that. Pay attention to where people are having conversations and become part of those conversations if you can. I say that specifically because we tell a lot of our clients, you know, you want to create great relationships  with your patients, you want to get lots of online reviews but really what you want are like raving fans and those fans that when somebody new moves into a community or has a need, the first place they're typically going is like to next door or to Facebook. And they're asking for recommendations for someone and you know, to help them with whatever their need is.

Jennifer Thompson (33:27):

And if you've got patients out there that are really like singing your praises, they will do this for you for these recommendations. And so you want to make sure that you stay top of mind and stay in top of mind. Doesn't mean spending a bunch of money. It means being visible. So it goes back to don't just be on social media and schedule some lame posts three days a week through a scheduling software. If you're going to do it, do it. And I think the pandemic is, is forcing us to think about sometimes some things outside the box that we've always said, I want to get to this, to create this great content, but I don't have time. Well, you have time now, so create the great content because in a couple of months you're going to be so busy, you're not going to know what to do with yourself.

Jennifer Thompson (34:09):

And so I think that's really important. And then maybe start thinking outside the box of things that you hadn't thought about doing before. I have a large practice that I work with that hosts an annual seminar, a biannual seminar where they offer CEUs to athletic trainers and allied health professionals lots of physical therapy people that come into this and they have their ortho doctors on their panels typically. And then they'll invite others from all over the country to come in. They'll get the CEUs and then they'll offer them, well, chances are, and they get about 700 people every time that come to the saying it's great for them, the chances are they're not going to be able to do it this year. And so we're already having discussions with their providers who they already have the credits so they can get in the next couple of weeks here, taking that all online and getting with for them particularly they're gonna focus on athletic trainers right now because they can offer those credits.

Jennifer Thompson (35:10):

But we're going to transfer that to an online forum and these doctors are going to give the same talks live in a zoom setting and at the end they can have the survey done and they can offer seat use. But it's a great way to build relationships that they typically wouldn't get that chance to do. And so just kind of things like that out of the box thinking like we have class or doing live Q and A's on Facebook and you know, taking those live Q and A's and then recording them and then we can use them in videos and other things down the road. So I think we just need to be authentic, you know, have fun with it, but have fun in a strategic way and then double down on being where your potential patients are being part of those conversations and then just making sure at the end of the day you deliver great customer service to everybody.

Karen Litzy (35:55):

I love it. And none of that takes a lot of money at all. No. As a matter of fact, a lot of that was free. Yup. It was all free for the most part. Yeah. Amazing. Amazing. Well, Jennifer, thank you so much. I mean you have given us so much to think about and ways that we can pivot our practices to be relevant in this time and to prepare for the future when hopefully things start to open up and return to different. I don't even want to say return to normal, but we'll return to a form of normalcy. I think it's always, I think things are always going to be a little different from now on, but to at least get out of more of a lockdown situation where we can actually see more people in real life. And I think it's like you said, putting out the fires are important, but then looking to the future is I should also be part of our plan. At least that's the big takeaway that I got from this. Absolutely. I think you hit the nail on the head. Yeah. Awesome. All right. Now the last question I asked this to everybody. Knowing where you are now in your life and in your career, what advice would you give to your younger self? Say straight out of school,

Jennifer Thompson (37:13):

Stop stressing out about everything so much. Just stop stressing out. You know, if you work hard and you put yourself in the right situation and you prepare yourself academically and through experiences, don't say no to things. Say yes, go in there. Experience so much of it and realize that as long as you're doing what you need to do, you're going to end up where you're supposed to be.

Karen Litzy (37:35):

Love it. Thank you so much. Now where can people find you? Where websites, social media.

Jennifer Thompson (37:42):

Yeah, absolutely. So you can find me at which is insight I N S I G H T M as in marketing, G as in and you can find me on anything social under the under the handle at dr marketing tips. So that's dr marketing tips. And you can find us on iTunes at the dr marketing tips podcast as well.

Karen Litzy (38:09):

Awesome. Well thank you so much. This was great and everyone we’ll have all of those links and the show notes at podcast.Healthywealthysmart under this episode. Jennifer, thank you so much again. This was perfect for the audience and I think they're going to take a lot out of it. So thank you so much. And everyone else. Thanks so much for listening. Have a great couple of days and stay healthy, wealthy, and smart.

Karen Litzy (38:36):

Thank you for listening and please subscribe to the podcast at and don't forget to follow us on social media.


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Apr 14, 2020

On this episode of the Healthy, Wealthy and Smart Podcast, I welcome Daniel Chelette, Amy Arundale and Justin Zych on the show to discuss some questions from our presentation at the Combined Sections Meeting in Denver, Colorado entitled, Turning the Road to Success Into a Highway: Strategies to Facilitate Success for Young Professionals.

In this episode, we discuss:

-How work-life balance evolves in your career

-The physical therapy awareness crisis

-How to tackle the female leadership disparity in physical therapy

-Burnout and when to pivot in your career

-And so much more!


Amy Arundale Twitter

Daniel Chelette Twitter

Justin Zych Twitter


A big thank you to Net Health for sponsoring this episode!  Learn more about Four Ways That Outpatient Therapy Providers Can Increase Patient Engagement in 2020!


For more information on Daniel:

Daniel Chelette is a staff physical therapist at Orthopedic One, Inc., a private practice in Columbus, OH. He graduated from Duke University with his Doctorate of Physical Therapy in 2015. He is also a graduate of the Ohio State University Orthopedic Residency Program and Orthopedic Manual Therapy Fellowship Programs. He became a Fellow of the Academy of Orthopedic Manual Physical Therapists in April. Since June of 2018, he has served as the Chair of the Central District of the Ohio Physical Therapy Association. Daniel’s interests include evaluating and treating the complex orthopedic patient, peer to peer mentorship, marketing and marketing strategy and advancing the physical therapy profession through excellence, expert practice, and collaborative care.


For more information on Justin:

Dr. Zych currently practices physical therapy in Atlanta, GA as an ABPTS certified orthopaedic specialist (OCS) and a Fellow of the American Academy of Orthopaedic Manual Physical Therapists (FAAOMPT) with Emory Healthcare. Additionally, Justin is an adjunct faculty member with Emory University’s Doctor of Physical Therapy program and a faculty member of Emory’s Orthopaedic Physical Therapy Residency. Justin earned his Bachelor of Science from Baylor University, then graduated from Duke University with his Doctorate in Physical Therapy. He has completed advanced training in orthopaedics through the Brooks/UNF Orthopaedic Residency and OMPT Fellowship programs, while concurrently practicing as a physical therapist and clinic manager in Jacksonville, FL. Justin is actively involved with the Academy of Orthopaedic Physical Therapy and Academy of Physical Therapy Education. He has identified his passions lie in clinical mentorship and classroom teaching, specifically to develop clinical reasoning and practice management for the early clinician.


For more information on Amy:

Amelia (Amy) Arundale, PT, PhD, DPT, SCS is a physical therapist and researcher. Originally from Fairbanks, Alaska, she received her Bachelor’s Degree with honors from Haverford College. Gaining both soccer playing and coaching experience through college, she spent a year as the William Penn Fellow and Head of Women’s Football (soccer) at the Chigwell School, in London. Amy completed her DPT at Duke University, and throughout as well as after, she gained experience working at multiple soccer clubs including the Carolina Railhawks F.C. (now North Carolina F.C.), the Capitol Area Soccer League, S.K. Brann (Norway), and the Atlanta Silverbacks. In 2013, Amy moved to Newark, Delaware to pursue a PhD under Dr. Lynn Snyder-Mackler. Working closely with her colleague Holly Silvers, Amy’s dissertation examined primary and secondary ACL injury prevention as well as career length and return to sport, primarily in soccer players. After a short post-doc in Linkoping, Sweden in 2017, Amy took a role as a post-doc under David Putrino at Mount Sinai Health System and working as a physical therapist and biomechanist at the Brooklyn Nets. Outside of work, Amy continues to play some soccer, however primarily plays Australian Rules Football for both the New York club and US National Team. Amy has also been involved a great deal in the APTA and AASPT, including serving as chair of the AASPT’s membership committee, Director of the APTA’s Student Assembly, and as a member of the APTA’s Leadership Development Committee.


Read the full transcript below:

Karen Litzy (00:00):

Hey everybody, welcome to the podcast. I'm happy to have each of you on and I'm going to have you introduce yourself in a second. But just for the listeners, the four of us were part of a presentation at CSM, the combined sections meeting through the American physical therapy association in Denver a couple of weeks ago. And our talk was creating a roadmap for your physical therapy career. And afterwards we had a Q and a and we just had so many questions that we just physically couldn't get to them due to time constraints and the such at CSM. So we thought we would record this podcast for the people who were there and the people who weren't there to answer the rest of the questions that were in our Slido queue. Cause I think we had quite a bit of questions. So, but before we do that, guys, I'm just gonna shoot to you and have all of you give a quick bio, tell us who you are, what you do, what you're up to, and then we'll get to all of those questions. So Justin, I'll have you start.

Justin Zych (01:00):

Sure, so I'm Justin Zych. I'm currently with Emory university. I am teaching in an adjunct role with the DPT program and then also the orthopedic residency. I went through and did an orthopedic residency and manual therapy fellowship through Brooks rehab in Jacksonville and did my PT education with Duke university.

Daniel Chelette (01:28):

Hey everybody. My name's Daniel Chelette. I also graduated alongside Justin from Duke in 2015. And also completed an orthopedic residency at the Ohio state university and then stayed on and completed a fellowship and with manual therapy at Ohio state as well. And then worked in an outpatient orthopedic clinic for a couple of years and then was fortunate enough to have the opportunity to join on and work as a physical there, the player performance center with the PGA tour. So actually up to two months into that and it's been a pretty cool experience. So that's where we're at right now.

Amy Arundale (02:15):

Hi, I'm Amy Arundale. I'm a physical therapist and biomechanistic with the Brooklyn nets. I also went to Duke although a few years before Dan and Justin and then worked in North Carolina for a little while as a sports physical therapist as well as working with a large soccer club before going and doing a PhD at the university of Delaware under Ireland Snyder Mackler. So did research on primary and secondary ACL injury prevention did a postdoc in Sweden with Juan activist and Martin Haglins before moving here to do Brooklyn.

Karen Litzy (02:56):

Well, thank you all for joining me and allowing the listeners to get a little bit of a glimpse into our CSM talk for those who weren't there and for those who were, and maybe we didn't answer their questions while we were there. We can answer it right now. So Daniel, I'm going to throw it to you. I'm going to have you take the lead for the remainder here. So take it away.

Daniel Chelette (03:20):

Let's do it. All right, so just a quick little background of the foundation or basis for this talk. It really focuses on some lessons and things that we have learned through the four VAR unique experiences up until this point about professional growth and professional development and things we've learned, the easy way and things we've learned the not so easy way. And just tidbits of wisdom we've picked up along the way and we thought it'd be valuable to put it together and have a talk for CSM. And that's kind of what well what the basis of all this was. So towards the last portion of the talk we just opened up wide open Q and A. and we got through a few questions but we've got a handful more that we're going to go with. So we're going to start out with let's see. What do you recommend for the future PT that wants to get involved in a specific section of PT but wants to remain local to their community?

Amy Arundale (04:26):

I can start with that one. I think one of the nice things about being involved in the like sections is a lot of times they actually are based where you're at. So they don't necessarily, they may require going to conferences but they sometimes don't even require that. So it's really easy actually to stay local and still contribute and get involved in the sections. Really. The big piece there and is just reaching out and saying, Hey, I'm really interested in getting involved. How can I volunteer? And that might be, you know, helping with a membership that, which might be making phone calls or emails or following up with people who have maybe accidentally dropped their section or their APTA membership. It might be helping with various other projects, but a lot of times those are actually you know, maybe they're internet based or they're going to be through conference calls. So it's pretty easy to stay local.

Karen Litzy (05:27):

Yeah, I think that's a great answer. I'm pretty involved in the private practice section of the APTA and I would echo what Amy said. A lot of you can get involved in committees. So a lot of the sections have individual committees and most of that work is done online with, maybe you have to go to the annual meeting of that section, but that's just once a year. And the good news is if you're doing a lot of things online, you're meeting people. When you go to, let's say the section meetings each year, you'll get to know people in your immediate local area. And it's a great way to start making and nurturing those connections in those relationships. So then you'll have people in your immediate area that you can go to for guidance and just to hang out and have fun as well. But I think starting, like Amy said, just have to ask.

Daniel Chelette (06:27):

Yeah. That’s beauty of the age that we live in is that it's really easy to connect be a long distance. So technology allows us to do that. And I'm a part of a committee through the American Academy of orthopedic manual physical therapists. It's the membership committee. And everybody's all over the place where all across the country. And that was just something I got plugged into and I've met a lot of cool people through it and have made some connections within that realm. Be that, so there's a lot of different like online and long distance ways that you can get connected without being connected, which would be, is it helpful if there's a particular area you want to stay in, but you still want to get connected? Two people within your community but also outside.

Karen Litzy (07:17):

All right, Daniel, go ahead. Take it away.

Daniel Chelette (07:21):

All right. We're stepping it up here. This next, and this is a good metaphysical question. Do you compartmentalize your life? How do you approach the interaction between family and professional domains?

Justin Zych (07:36):

So yeah, that is a really deep question. I'll try to go through and answer to the best of my ability. I think that that intersects a little bit with my section of the talk, which really focused on trying to make sure that you could handle all of the new responsibilities that come with being a new physical therapist. I'm getting used to the responsibilities and productivity expectations, but while also at the same time understanding that it's important to have a balance outside of the clinic and a really good work life balance. So as far as compartmentalizing it, I don't know if I've specifically sat down and tried to put things into boxes. I do have a little bit of a blend. I mean, even my wife works for a different physical therapy company, so we share a little bit of a shared language with that.

Justin Zych (08:24):

But it's important that whether it's documentation or other things. When I leave the clinic, I try to leave and make sure that I have a little bit of time for me and time to focus on whether that's my own professional development going and taking advantage of opportunities like this to meet and talk with other people or just relax and kind of step away from the responsibilities that you go through throughout the day. So that's a great question, but a very, I think you're going to find a bunch of individual answers from it.

Daniel Chelette (08:56):

Yeah, I think it really, it's an individual question kind of like Justin mentioned in, I think for me. What I've found is, you know, maybe well work life, work life balance, particularly going through residency and a fellowship you know, work life balance, a 50, 50 split, maybe not completely realistic, it's a work life division. So where you just have, you have things within your life, be it relationships or activities or whatever. We are able to unplug a little bit from work. And those might be bigger parts of your life at different points in your life. But it's being able to, you know nurture and engage in all aspects of who you are as a person. And not just work, work, work, work, work but kind of be guided by what you're passionate about, what's important in your life. And those will take up bigger sections of your life pie at different points in your life. So it's just important to try to have a division but not necessarily think that you have to keep that division at a certain level at all times throughout your life because life changes.

Amy Arundale (10:11):

So my old advisor LENSTAR Mackler and I've also heard Sharon Dunn use the metaphor of juggling. And they talk about juggling rubber balls and crystal balls. So your crystal balls being the things that are like really, really important. The things that you have to keep in the air because if you drop they shatter, so those might be like family, they might be important relationships. They might be work. And then you also then also have rubber balls. So rubber balls would be then things that if you drop they'll bounce back. They're not quite as crucial to keep in the air all times. And, that balance between some of those rubber balls and crystal balls is always going to change. But that there are some things that you have to keep in the air and some things that you can let drop or you might have, they might have a different kind of juggling cycle than others.

Amy Arundale (11:07):

So yeah, I think it changes from time to time. You know, I've had periods of time where I've basically just worked full time. My postdoc was a great example. I was basically, you know, going to work during the day working on postdoc stuff and then coming home and trying to finish off revisions on my PhD papers. And I was in a long distance relationship at the time, so it kind of just worked that I was literally working, you know, 14 sometimes 14, 16 hours a day. That's not sustainable for a long period of time though. And I'm guilty of sometimes not being good at that balance. I would like to think as I've gotten older, I'm better at creating time where I'm not working or you know, actually taking vacations where I'm putting an email like vacation, email reminder on and not looking at emails.

Amy Arundale (12:04):

But it's going to change from time to time. Those priorities will change as your life changes. So I don't know if it's necessarily compartmentalizing, but prioritizing what needs to be, what's that crystal ball? Are those crystal balls and what are those rubber balls?


Karen Litzy:

Okay. You guys, they were all three great answers and I really don't think I have much to add. What I will say is that as you get older, since I'm definitely the oldest one of this bunch, as you get older, it does get easier because you start to realize the things that drive your happiness and the things that don't. And as you get older, you really want to make, like one of my crystal balls, which I love by the way, it's Sharon Dunn is genius obviously. But for me, one of my crystal balls I'm going to use that is happiness.

Karen Litzy (12:58):

And so within that crystal ball, what really makes me happy. And that's something that I keep up in there at all times. And at times maybe it is work. Maybe it's not. Maybe it's my relationship, maybe it's my family or my friends or it's just me sitting around and bingeing on Netflix. But what happens when you get older is I think, yeah, I agree. I don't know. And I think we've all echoed this, that I don't think you compartmentalize. You just really start to realize what's the most meaningful things for you. Right now. And it's fluid and changes sometimes day to day, week to week, month to month, year to year.

Daniel Chelette (13:55):

All right. And one, one quick thing on that last question. Kind of a hot topic, particularly in the medical doctor community is burnout and resiliency and you'll see those terms thrown around a lot. And I think a big thing is to realize that those types of things as far as burnout and kind of getting to a point, we're just sort of worn out with what with the PT professional, which do on a daily basis everybody's susceptible to it. You know, we can all get caught in this idea that maybe we're indestructable or you know, Oh, I can take on as much as I wanted to or need to like machine X, Y and Z. At a certain point it's a marathon, not a sprint. And you have to sort of like Karen and Amy alluded to that prioritization is huge. And definitely gets a little bit easier as you gain more life experience and kind of see what matters and maybe what doesn't so much.

Daniel Chelette (14:51):

Okay, now they're kind of good solid question here. So I'm going to paraphrase a little bit in, So companies, businesses usually do something really specific now for a specific product or a service or something like that. They focus on one thing.

Daniel Chelette (15:02):

In PT, we do many things. Is there an identity crisis within the profession of physical therapy? And how do we address it? So I’ll kind of get the ball rolling? That's a heavy question. I think to a certain degree, I don't know if I would say crisis, but I do think at times like I use the situation of if somebody asked me what physical therapy is. Initially I have a little bit of a hard time describing it. I think, I guess the mission statement of the vision 2020 is sort of what I fall back to. It's a really good snapshot of how we can describe what we do. It's basically helping to optimize and maximize the human experience through movement and overall health and, you know, but that in itself is a little bit vague and a big picture and sort of hard to really put a specific meat too. So, yeah, I think, I think to a certain degree it's a little bit hard to say what is physical therapy’s identity? What do you guys think?

Amy Arundale (16:21):

I would say, I don't know if we have an identity crisis, but I think we have an awareness crisis. I think the general public's knowledge and awareness of physical therapy and then also within the medical profession, the awareness and knowledge of what physical therapy is I think is a massive problem because that knowledge and awareness isn't there. And probably part of it then comes from us. I think, you know, Dan, what you're saying, I think that is that kind of, if we can't describe ourselves then no wonder other people can't figure out what we do or how we do it. So I'll give a shout out actually to Tracy Blake who's a physical therapist and a researcher in Canada. And one of the things that the last time when we sat down and had a chat was, she kinda gave me this challenge was if someone were to walk up to you and ask you what you do, come up with a way to describe what you do without using any medical terminology.

Amy Arundale (17:28):

So without using movement, without using sports, without using some of our fallback terminology, like come up with that elevator pitch of this is what I do. So I'm happy if you've got that at the ready. If you understand that, if you can kind of, yeah, the drop of a dime, give that, you know, five seconds spiel about what physical therapy is, then suddenly, you know, that person knows. But we've all got to have that at the ready and we've all that. I'd be able to do that so that we can put it in a common language that, you know, your next door neighbor can understand, that your grandmother can understand. So when they come to you and say, you know, you know, my hip's been bothering me for six weeks and I've been going to a chiropractor you've got that language to be able to say, well, have you thought about physical therapy?

Amy Arundale (18:29):

When you're talking to a doctor in a hospital or even just in a, you know, normal conversation you know, you've got that ability to say, well, Hey, you know, what about PT? Yeah, let's not put them on an opioid. Let's get them into physical therapy. So I think it's really a Big awareness crisis.


Karen Litzy:

Okay. So Amy then my challenge to you is to Tracy's point, how do you answer that question? And then I haven't even bigger challenge though I'll say to everyone, but how do you answer that question?


Amy Arundale:

So I've written it down. Let's see if I can get it right. The short version of mine is that my goal is to help athletes at all levels develop into their optimal athletic being as well as develop their optimal performance. What if someone says, well, what do you mean by optimal? That's a good question. What does that mean exactly? How do I help you become the best you can be?

Karen Litzy (19:27):

Okay. Not bad. Not bad. Excellent. Very nice. Very nice. So now I have a challenge for the three of you and let's see. Daniel, well, no, we'll start with Justin. Let's put him on the spot first. Great. All right. So I was at an entrepreneurial meetup a couple of years ago, and the person who was running this, Mmm gosh, I can't remember his name now. Isn't that terrible? But he said, I want everyone to stand up. In five words. So you have five fingers, right? Most of us. So in five words, explain to me what you do. So talk about stripping it down to its barest essentials. Simplifying to the point of maybe absurdity. It's hard to say what you do in five words, but Daniel, I'll start with you. So someone comes up to you and you say, I'm a physical therapist. Five words. This is what I do. Help people live life freely.

Karen Litzy (20:48):

Okay. That's not bad. Not bad. Justin.

Justin Zych (20:51):

I'm not going to use a sentence, but facilitate. Educate. Yeah. Facilitate. Educate. Empower. Does that count that I repeated like six. Now, restore, empathize. Throw the thighs in there.

Karen Litzy (21:09):

Nice. Yeah. When I did this for this little meetup, I said, I help people move better. That's what I said. Those were the five words. I help people move better. But I do like where I think maybe if we put our heads together and we mashed up all four of ours, I think we'd come up with a really, really nice identity statement that is maybe 10 words. So maybe we can put our heads together after this and come up with a nice identity statement made up of 10 words. And if we were at CSM, we would have the audience do this. This would have been one of their action items. So what I'd be curious is for the people listening to this, you know, put an action item put, what are your five words, what would you do to describe what physical therapy is? And then if you're on Twitter, just tag one of us. You can find all of our Twitter handles at the podcast, at in the show notes here. So tag one of us and let us know what your five words are because I'd be really curious to know that. Excellent. All right, Daniel, where are we at?

Justin Zych (22:42):

So actually I want to, I still want to go back to the last question cause I think there's a really good point in there. So Amy hit it really well with the awareness issue versus the identity crisis within our profession. I, I think one of the things that sets us apart is how dynamic we're able to be. And the skill set that we're given in, you know, when we have our DPT education and when we graduate, you know, granted, you know, we're using the term as a generalist where you can go and specialize further. But I think that that's a, that's a rare but very very powerful trait of our profession is that we're able to help across a spectrum of a lot of patients. The challenge that I would say if that question was worded a little differently is if we focus specifically just on one section, so is there an identity crisis within the orthopedic section?

Justin Zych (23:36):

If somebody comes in and they have hip pain, are they going to be treated differently by all four of us and then therefore does that make it really tough for us to come up with this five words, 10 words statement? Because we're, we're very heterogeneous in how we, how we address patients still kind of within specific subsets. So I think that's probably the bigger crisis if you will. We still have a, you know, even within specific sections, a 10 lane highway instead of, you know, two or three based off of specific patient needs.

Karen Litzy (24:10):

And do you think that publication of CPGs helps that it for people who, and this is going off on a totally other question, I realize that, but following up with that, do you think CPGs published CPGs help with that and staying, I guess up and current on the literature can help with that? Do you feel like that is something that might close that gap of huge variability?

Justin Zych (24:39):

Yeah, I think the way that they're designed, that's exactly what they're trying to do is they're trying to take all of this, this you know, research literature review that we should all be doing and put it in a really nice, you know, consensus statement for us and then give us, you know, specific things to look deeper into the CPG. So I think that it's there, it's just again, how do you, is everybody finding that? And if they are finding it, are they applying it properly, you know, towards their practice. So I like that the information is coming out there. At this point, I'm not completely confident that it's reaching throughout, you know, the spectrum of everybody that it should be. But hopefully, you know, it continues, especially with, as we have new people graduating, we really start to develop that as more of the norm. And then it's a lot easier to not necessarily standardize but get everyone in in a couple of lanes instead of 10 lanes.

Daniel Chelette (25:36):

So Justin, just to play devil's advocate what about the good things that come with having 10 lanes versus two? And there's some people that I completely am on board with what you're saying, but I think there are plenty of folks that would say, well that's the beauty of physical therapy is that it can, you know, you can really make it make it individualized and what it is to you and you can treat. Obviously there's principles that you abide by, but you can be different then the PT next to you and different to the PT next to them and I can still offer high value. What would you say to somebody who would say that?

Justin Zych (26:26):

I think that your statement you just said is completely fine. But, the issue that comes about that is that therapist who wants to provide the individual approach, have they, you know, exposed themselves to enough different approaches or different ways that they would look at it, that they can be truly individual to the patient instead of saying, okay, I'm going to focus on I’m a, you know, to throw anyone or anything under the bus here, but I am specifically a Maitland therapist. I'm specifically a McKenzie therapist. And then that approach fits that patient all of a sudden, as opposed to being able to expose yourself enough to be able to flow in and out. Again, based off of what you said, which is I completely agree with that individual approach. So making sure that you have that dynamic flexibility to cater your skills. Sorry, a little bit of a tangent there, but can't help myself.

Amy Arundale (27:37):

I'll piggy back and put a shout out to people who want to get involved. But one of the things that the orthopedic and the sports section, I'm going to go back to their old names, the orthopedic section and the sports section. In the newer clinical practice guidelines. One of the things that I think Jay has done a great job of is kind of forming committees around each guideline on implementation. So when we did the knee and ACL injury prevention clinical practice guideline, we actually had a whole separate committee that we pulled together that was in charge of how do we help disseminate this information and help clinicians implement it. So that was putting together a really short synopsis for clinicians, a pamphlet or just like one pager that can be like just printed off and given to a clinicians. It was two videos. So videos of actual injury prevention programs, one for field based athletes on one for court based athletes. But getting those out, just like you talked about Justin, you know, that that's sometimes where that or that is where that gap between research and clinical practice comes. And that implementation is so important, but it means that yeah, there's a chance to get involved for people who are interested in helping those guidelines really kind of truly get disseminated in the way that they need to be.

Karen Litzy (29:04):

Great. And I think that's also really good for the treating clinician because oftentimes as a treating clinician, we feel like we're so far removed from the researchers and even from the journals that you think, well, what is my contribution going to do? Like how can I get involved? I'm the J word, just a clinician. And so knowing that these committees exist and that as a treating clinician, you can kind of be part of that if you reach out to get involved I think is really important because oftentimes I think clinicians sometimes feel like a little

Karen Litzy (29:42):

Left out, sort of and left behind as part of the club, you know. So I think, Amy, thank you so much for bringing that up. And does anyone else have any more comments on this specific question or should we move on to the next one?

Daniel Chelette (29:59):

Alright. So Amy and Karen, this question is geared towards you guys. So the question reads while PT is a female dominated field, there is still a disparity in female leadership. Do you have advice for female student physical therapists who may desire those leadership roles?

Karen Litzy (30:24):

I would say number one, look to the APTA. Look to your state organization, look to your, even where you're working and try to find a female physical therapist or even look to social media, right? Look to the wider world that you feel you can model. So I think modeling, especially for women, for people LGBTQ for people, minorities is so important. So you want to look for those models. Look for the people who are like, Hey, this person is kind of like me. So I really feel like I can follow a model, this person, I would say, look to that first and then follow that person, see what they're doing, try and emulate some of, not so much of what they're doing in PT, but how they're conducting themselves as a professional. And then like I said, during our talk, reach out, you know, try and find that positive mentor of try and find that the mentorship that that you are seeking and that you need and that you feel can bring you to the next level, not only as a therapist but you know, as a person and as a leader within the physical therapy world.

Karen Litzy (31:46):

And I think it's very difficult. I'll do a shameless plug for myself here really quick. We created the women in PT summit specifically to help women within the profession, a network, meet some amazing female and male leaders within the profession and have difficult discussions that need to be had to advance females within the profession. And I will also say to not block out our male counterparts because they need to be part of the broader conversation. Because without that, how can we really expect to move forward if we don't have all the stakeholders at the table. So I would say speak up, speak out, look at people who are at the top of their game.

Karen Litzy (32:40):

And then in a high level positions, Sharon Dunn, Claire, the editor of JOSPT, Emma Stokes, the head of WCPT. All of these people, if you reach out to them or you hit them up on social media, they will most likely get back to you. It may not be really fast, but they will probably do that. So I would say look to the broader physical therapy community. Look to the world of physical therapy right down to your individual clinics because I think that you'll find there are a lot of people to model.

Amy Arundale (33:41):

Mmm, yeah. Yeah. I 100% agree. I think modeling and mentorship are huge. Finding people that you connect with and who can give you honest, upfront feedback but also support. So I feel like I'm pretty lucky in both having really strong women who I consider as mentors, cause I think that is important. When I was part of the student assembly, Amy Klein kind of oversaw the student assembly and she became someone who I really look up to and admire and will go to for, I know she'll give me it straight whether it's you know, good or bad, I know she'll give it to me straight and I need that. But then also Joe Black is somebody who's also been a longtime mentor of mine recently. And the Stokes I've connected with and that was just meeting her at a conference. And we connected at a conference and had an amazing conversation and that's developed further too. So I think mentorship and then getting involved seeking the opportunities. Mmm. And seeking and creating, cause sometimes they're not already there. Sometimes, you have to create them yourself. Some of those opportunities that you want going out and saying, Hey, can I volunteer here? Where they may not have had volunteers before. So finding those opportunities that you want and that you think will help you develop towards your end goal.

Justin Zych (34:53):

I was just going to say really quick of course you two have been, you know, great examples of how females can Excel and create their own path.

Justin Zych (35:08):

The thing about mentors is with mentors, it's so important to have a variety of mentors because you're going to pick out different things that the mentors are going to help you with. One of my most influential mentors was a female. She was, you know, I was involved with her in the fellowship program that I was in. And she really helped give me some really blunt but helpful feedback that helped a lot with some of my soft skills. So I'm kind of exposing myself a little bit, but she told me that after my lecture, it was on the cervical spine. She was like, yeah, like the content was great. You just weren't likable and just kind of threw that right at me, let me chew on it a little bit. But that actually really changed how I approached a lot of different things and helped me develop those soft skills.

Justin Zych (35:55):

So at the same time, she helped me through some managerial struggles that I was having. So that variety is incredibly important. And I've been a mentor too. You know, some of my mentees were females and they're doing amazing things right now and I hope that whatever feedback I gave them, they took the right things from and continue to move forward. So it's an issue that goes across, you know, the gender lines. And as males, I want us to be aware that it's going on as well. And not to lead into that discrepancy that Karen described, but still provide that same level of mentorship, same level of opportunity and consideration. So it's a great question and hopefully the gap narrows as we go forward.

Daniel Chelette (36:59):

Oh, here's another good one. Any recommendations for a PT that is two years out and feels completely lost and, or in the wrong setting?

Justin Zych (37:10):

Yeah, so I'll start with that one. You know, of course understanding that I probably don't have the exact answer here. This really tied into my portion of the talk, which was the importance of the clinical environment within your first couple of years of development. And then also making sure that you understood that we clarified the difference between being engaged in your environment, in your system, and even in your organization versus being burnt out. And how those two aren't necessarily exactly the same thing. Burnout is something that we describe as more of like a longterm reaction with like physical manifestations where engagement is more of deciding how you want to use your remaining effort in the day, the effort that you can discern as I can do this to go home and watch Netflix or I can do this to really give back into my system.

Justin Zych (38:06):

So I actually had somebody right after the talk come up to me and just say that she really appreciated just hearing it and understanding that there are a lot of people that have that same sense where your question's coming from. So I just want to put that out there first of all. So I would say first reflect on what first off what you want out of your clinic and see what they are and are not matching. And if you've been in that for two years, that's a pretty good trial run to figure out if there's a different environment that maybe you would want to consider that's going to work more on engagement. What maybe that you want to be more involved in a clinical instruction and be a CI. Maybe you want to do some project management, have some more specific mentorship or it's just the way that they're setting up their productivity. So is it a question that I'm glad you're steering into right now? But it's gonna take a little bit of reflection not only on what your expectations are of the clinic and how you see yourself as a therapist but going even further, you know, keeping your system, your clinic accountable for are they meeting or at least trying to meet and keep me engaged in those environments. So we should, I wish you luck with that reflection.

Amy Arundale (39:27):

Nailed it.

Daniel Chelette (39:29):

Crushed it, man. I just got, I mean, that was a sick answer, man. That was right, right on the money. And the one thing that I would highlight is what I spoke on in my portion of the talk is try to strip it back and think, okay, like what am I about as far as life goes? Like, what am I passionate about? What am I into? What gives me energy? And then kind of builds yourself back up, okay, what as far as work goes, what aligns with that? And then why do I feel a disconnect with where I'm at? And are there ways that I can change my current situation kind of within it? Or do I need to you know, do I need to move on or do something different?

Daniel Chelette (40:22):

So I would try to use your personal passions and sort of your foundation of who you are as a person to help you kind of reset and try to figure it out. But you know, I think that's a great question cause we all go through it at some point in time. And you know, the concepts of burnout. Mm. Oh, reduced engagement and things. That's all part of the game. And those are completely, but I think burnout obviously isn't a good thing, but don't feel bad or guilty if and when you run into those things. Cause we're all humans. And, they can happen but know that there are ways that you can move out of that and move past that. And that's one of the cool things about PTs. There's so much to so many different things to do and get involved in. But yeah, great question.

Amy Arundale (41:15):

That passion was just like the one word that I felt like we needed in that answer. So I think those two are perfect.


Karen Litzy:

So we're good. We hit all the questions. So I'm going to ask one last question. It's a question that I ask everyone and Justin, I'll start with you. Not to put you on the spot again, but given what you know now in your life and in your career, what advice would you give yourself as a new grad fresh out of Duke.

Justin Zych (41:47):

Okay. Yeah, no, that's an awesome question. I think the biggest advice that I would give myself is to not have expectations of quick motion, quick development. I'm going through. And in my talk I talked a little bit about, we were in Denver for CSM. So I talked about using the French fry approach with skis where you go down quickly or the pizza approach where you go slowly. So making sure that at times, I was looking at the, you know, what I would tell myself now is make sure that you're looking at just that next step and not focusing on the step that's three or four away. So that you're really present in those moments cause there's a lot of development things that you can potentially miss over as you're trying to really quickly make it to that next step. So take a little bit more of that ski pizza approach.

Amy Arundale (42:40):

Fabulous. Daniel, go ahead.

Daniel Chelette (42:42):

I think what I would say is it's a marathon, not a sprint. You know, it's as far as, you know, career goes in, life goes, it's not just, you know, going 110% each and every day. It's being able to look at the long game. So with the short game, kind of along the lines of with what Justin said, just keeping in mind that Mmm,  it's a marathon, not a sprint. You have to keep the big picture in mind.

Amy Arundale (43:47):

For me, it would be like give yourself permission and that I think that extends to a number of different things. But you know, one of the big ones is kind of self care, you know, kind of giving your self permission to take that time off or to let something else be a little bit higher priority. Whether that's working out or spending time with people, kind of give yourself permission to you know, take that step back and look at things from that 30,000 foot view. So you can really see that big picture. So I think that would probably be mine.

Karen Litzy (44:32):

Excellent. And then I feel like I've answered this question in various iterations over the years, but I've really think what I would tell myself. Yeah, right. Knowing what I know now and when I first graduated, which was quite a long time ago, would be from a career standpoint to get more involved. Whether that be in the APTA or sections or things like that. Because I really wasn't involved and from a personal standpoint is like I needed to calm down. Yeah. Like the Taylor Swift song, like I needed to calm down and that's what I would tell myself. Like I was always kind of go, go, go, go, go and I have to do this and I have to do that. And so I would tell myself like, calm down.

Karen Litzy (45:27):

Things will happen. Kind of echoing Justin and Dan, like I really that's advice I would give to myself is like, calm, calm down, you'll be fine. So that's what I would give to myself. So you guys, thank you so much. All of you for taking the time out and answering all the rest of these questions I think will be really helpful for people who are there and people who weren't to get a little taste of what we spoke about at CSM. And like I said, everybody's social media handles and info will be on the podcast website at in the show notes under this episode. So you guys, thank you so, so much. I really appreciate it. And everyone, thank you so much for tuning in. Have a great couple of days and stay healthy, wealthy and smart.



Thanks for listening and subscribing to the podcast! Make sure to connect with me on twitter, instagram  and facebook to stay updated on all of the latest!  Show your support for the show by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts!

Apr 6, 2020

In this episode of the Healthy, Wealthy and Smart Podcast, Jenna Kantor guests hosts and interviews Adrian Miranda on the Academy of Orthopedic Physical Therapy.  Adrian Miranda, class of Ithaca College Physical Therapy '07, was born and raised in Manhattan. He currently practices at Windsor Physical Therapy in Brooklyn, NY. In addition, he is a medical consultant and content creator at a Virtual Reality rehab start-up called Reactiv.

In this episode, we discuss:

-Educational resources available at the Academy of Orthopedic Physical Therapy

-Diverse mediums used to disseminate research to clinicians

-How to be involved in advocacy on the state and federal level for the PT profession

-The importance of research for both advocacy efforts and clinical practice

-And so much more!




Cell phone: (585) 472-5201

Academy of Orthopedic Physical Therapy Twitter

Academy of Orthopedic Physical Therapy Website

JOSPT Website


A big thank you to Net Health for sponsoring this episode!  Learn more about Four Ways That Outpatient Therapy Providers Can Increase Patient Engagement in 2020!


For more information on Adrian:

Adrian Miranda class of Ithaca College Physical Therapy '07 was born and raised in Manhattan. He currently practices at Windsor Physical Therapy in Brooklyn, NY. In addition he is medical consultant and content creator at a Virtual Reality rehab start up called Reactiv. In the past Adrian has also worked in media including video producer and a television host for BRIC TV ("Check out the Workout") a local television station in Brookyn. Previously he was a faculty member in the TOURO College Orthopedic Physical Therapy Program as the Director of Clinical Residency education. He also was an instructor for Summit Professional Education teaching continuing education (Shoulder Assessment and Treatment) He is currently the Chair of the PR/Marketing committee for the Academy of Orthopedic Physical Therapy (APTA) and contributes to APTA Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion initiatives. He previously held positions in the NYPTA as Chair of the Minority Affairs committee of the NYPTA, member of the programming committee, and Brooklyn/Staten Island Legislative liaison. He also teaches media including video editing, video production at Brooklyn media non profit BRIC. In his spare time he swing dances, does crossfit, has a web series called Gross Anatomy on Firework, and dabbles in theater.  


For more information on Jenna:

Jenna Kantor (co-founder) is a bubbly and energetic girl who was born and raised in Petaluma, California. Growing up, she trained and performed ballet throughout the United States. After earning a BA in Dance and Drama at the University of California, Irvine, she worked professionally in musical theatre for 15+ years with tours, regional theatres, & overseas ( until she found herself ready to move onto a new chapter in her life – a career in Physical Therapy. Jenna is currently in her 3rd year at Columbia University’s Physical Therapy Program. She is also a co-founder of the podcast, “Physiotherapy Performance Perspectives,” has an evidence-based monthly youtube series titled “Injury Prevention for Dancers,” is a NY SSIG Co-Founder, NYPTA Student Conclave 2017 Development Team, works with the NYPTA Greater New York Legislative Task Force and is the NYPTA Public Policy Committee Student Liaison. Jenna aspires to be a physical therapist for amateur and professional performers to help ensure long, healthy careers. To learn more, please check out her website:


Read the full transcript below:

Jenna Kantor (00:00):

Hello. Hello. Hello, this is Jenna Kantor. Welcome back to another episode on healthy, wealthy and smart. I am here with Adrian Miranda who is a physical therapist who you have probably seen on social media quite a bit. Adrian, would you first tell everyone exactly what your job is that we are going to be discussing and in which section of the APTA?

Adrian Miranda (00:21):

So my name is Adrian Miranda. I am the chair of the public relations committee for the Academy of orthopedic physical therapy.

Jenna Kantor (00:30):

Yes, that's right. A mouthful in which I could not get off. So I had Adrian saved for me. Well Adrian, first of all, thank you so much for popping on today for a nice little interview. So I want to first just dive in because I don't know anything about the orthopedic section in the sense of what is it is that you guys are doing for me as a new grad, I'm always thinking the JOSPT, that is a great resource and that is it. So we're going to be diving into more of what the orthopedic section is doing at this point so we can all learn and better appreciate it. And also for those who are considering joining the section, you'll go, Oh, this is for me. Or actually it's not for me. I'm just gonna be sitting with other sections instead. So first of all, what is the big focus for the orthopedic section?

Adrian Miranda (01:23):

Well, the orthopedic section does a lot of things. But let's talk about the focus on education. So as you said, the JOSPT that is actually a joint collaboration between the Academy of orthopedic physical therapy and Academy of sports physical therapy. One thing, so I became the chair, I guess I spent two years I believe now or going into my second year, but I was part of the community for about six months before that. And one thing I would challenge anyone or ask anybody to do is actually go to the website, Look at all the tabs, scroll through it. And you can find so many things that when I became the actual a chair and I went, I'm just perusing and just looking at what the Academy does. Cause my goal was like I think the Academy does a ton of stuff that not many people know about.

Adrian Miranda (02:12):

You're going to learn so much about how much work and effort goes into and how many resources you can find for yourself or your colleagues educationally. There's a lot of independent study courses. The one that you may know if you've either going through residency finishing residency and taking your OCS, but it's the current concepts which is of, I say it's a staple. If you want to take the OCS, you should have the current concepts, you should be looking for the current concepts and reading through it. That's going to be a huge, huge resource and who get better to go to then the Academy itself. Besides that, cause there's so many courses, even things that I didn't know about. For example, there was actually a concussion independent study course. As you know, many of us, even myself in the clinic are starting to get more and more referrals for patients who have had a concussion diagnosis. So that's out there. There are other courses that are older. Some you get the current courses you get see you use for their courses that you don't get. For example, there is a triathlete course, there is a postoperative course, there is a work related injuries course, auto accident, all these are resources that anybody can use. And that's just kind of the tip of the iceberg as far as courses that you can purchase. And moving forward there are some free resources as well.

Jenna Kantor (03:31):

That's very helpful. So for somebody who doesn't have time, Oh, I feel like I'm speaking for everyone when I say that than going, Oh my God, I have to go and like playing the tabs. How much time is that? I have other things on my to do list. You just gave an overview of the education part, but what are some highlights on things that stood out to you personally within that that's being offered?

Adrian Miranda (03:54):

So none of us have time. You're right. And so I think one of the things that you're going to start to see is easier access to information. So for example, even if you look at any of our social media threads which if you’re looking at orthopedic within a you're gonna find, for example, we had a patellofemoral infographic. You're going to start to see some more smaller snippets because the Academy has realized that yes, people don't know how to digest the information and put into clinical practice right away. You have to really large clinical practice guideline is 70 pages or 50 pages. And then how to kind of digest that and to put it back out in the clinic. We’re trying to create easier versions of that, whether it's infographics. We are also partnering with podcasters like yourself to disseminate information from the authors themselves to give you the information so you can have passive listening.

Adrian Miranda (04:46):

In other words, you don't have to read, you can actually be driving to work going on the subway. You can be on your lunch break and listening to information from authors or researchers of these publications. So we're trying to make smaller tidbits to make it digestible in a form that's also accessible to most people. So we've been looking to long form writing. But right now it's infographics are trying to get onto podcast and educate more people, but we are looking into the fact that there is a time constraint in our physical therapy profession.

Jenna Kantor (05:20):

Yeah. That's excellent to learn. So for the orthopedic section, with the information that you have provided that they're already offering, which is incredible, who is your audience when you're creating the infographics or the infographics for us to better understand, are they infographics where we can reshare it to patients?

Adrian Miranda (05:45):

So good question. These are for us. So the push is actually for us clinicians to get a better grasp of this literature and a cliff notes initial format. However, if you look at JOSPT and I think moving forward, we're trying to also create a little bit of public awareness. So have you seen in JOSPT patient perspectives? That's one way that you can utilize and share it. And I actually remember when they first came out in my clinic, I printed them out in color, put it on the walls and the rooms and patients actually read it and ask questions about it. But as far as what you'll see further moving forward, like the infographics, it's going to be more for us, for the clinician so that we can actually suck in the information and be able to distribute it out to our patients in the easier manner.

Jenna Kantor (06:27):

Yeah, that's a big deal. As a clinician myself or I'm putting together a lot of dance research and creating it on this long form document with links to different research to have it disseminated will be great because the time is taking me to create that. It's a lot of time. It's a lot of time. And I know other clinicians don't have that, so I'm creating this for the dance community at large. So I think that's a really big deal that you guys are looking to make that information more available because there's always regular research and I just want to point this out because nobody can see it.

Adrian Miranda (07:05):

Anyways, I just wanted to put this out there before we continue. Another question. We are also looking for ideas. We want to engage with our members. So if you have any ideas about how to disseminate this information in a different way, we're talking about even long form writing. Some people love to read and that's totally fine. We're trying to look into different options. We're definitely looking for suggestions, people to collaborate with us people to a similar to what you are doing Jenna. To collaborate with us, give us new ideas. We're definitely looking for innovative ways even some old ways that we can bring back to help our clinicians better understand this information and be able to utilize it.

Jenna Kantor (07:44):

I love that. So this is a newer concept, but we have discussed about it. How is the orthopedic brainstorming, how to bring in other people who are providing information and education to help what we bring to patients.

Adrian Miranda (07:58):

I think it's people who are doing the work. Researchers, also clinicians, people who are in the clinic and researching, you know, we're in the clinic and researching. But the Academy definitely has some of the top researchers, people who have their pulse on newer topics. And one of the things that, that also stand in me was when the concussion dependence study came out. And I think that's to show that right now we're going to see an uptake in physicians referring concussion patients to our profession. And we have to be ready for that.

Jenna Kantor (08:31):

You are on the PR committee, so you know a little bit about the public and the relations. You're like Samantha from sex in the city, but not anyway, so I digress. What is it that you guys are doing and focusing on within the marketing committee alone and who is your audience for that?

Adrian Miranda (08:50):

We just want to show you stuff. We want to show you and teach you things. For example, if you look at our recent posts, we wanted to share what happened at CSM. We actually have the Rose award, which if you were in a, for example, a rural setting, if you're doing home health care, you can actually watch his full speech on his study. That had to do with how many visits was optimal for home health, physical therapists. So those are the things that we want to kind of bring you inside and say, Hey, look, this is what we're doing. We are finding committee members who are have skills in different aspects of the media. Which like I said, we're looking for people, we're always looking for people and new ideas. But when I came in, as I told you I wanted to share everything that the Academy was doing at one point I will look there's actually even some certification for imaging.

Adrian Miranda (09:43):

If you are interested in imaging or you think you want to dive into any type of imaging for your research, your PhD or even if you're a new graduate who says, Oh, I really want to learn more about imaging. There is a special interest group for imaging with resources and there's I believe there is either a discount or something and you can again, you can kind of scroll through the social media cause we did post it at one point. We just go through so much information that I can't tell you everything on the up the top of my head. But we're trying to share information that you would actually have to go and scroll and look for on the website. We're trying to make it more accessible. So there's just so many things that we want to it's like a media company really.

Adrian Miranda (10:23):

We're just trying to share what things we do and what opportunities. Oh, another example is the federal advocacy forum. So there is the money into the Academy will provide to a student to actually attend the federal advocacy forum. I believe the deadline has passed for that to apply for the scholarship or the grant. But those are things that we're trying to do. Before I was at CSM and the chair of the practice committee came up to me and said, Hey, is there any way that you can share this? And so those are things that we, even through email marketing, you may have seen it. There was also other programs like CoStar, which you'll have to kind of look it up or go online or go on the website or social media to find out about it.

Adrian Miranda (11:07):

It was about innovation and science. And it's not just for physical therapy. So there's a lot of opportunities, volunteer opportunities, ways to get involved, resources, educational materials. So the peer committees, just trying to say, Hey, you know, those of you on social media, there's all this stuff that you can do. Right now if you look online, soon enough there'll be like a residency Q and A. So there are many of you who are interested in going into residency or currently in residency and we're trying to reach out to that population as well. So there's a target population. It's really the Academy members. So we don't have new grads or old grads. There is a little bit more of a push to get attention from new graduates and students, but we want to be able to share as much information that will help our members. So we are a member facing organizations.

Jenna Kantor (11:58):

That's really great. That's actually fantastic. Okay. I'm going to ask a controversial question more because the concept and idea is definitely backwards was what we're pushing for in the physical therapy profession regarding research. We want to be research based, we want that these studies to back up everything we do. We're doctors for, you know, for sake. So what about physical therapists who are just going, I don't need the research in order to treat these patients and get them better. I'm not saying this to criticize them. I'm not saying this to separate us. For somebody who's not interested in all this data and everything, what do you guys have to provide for them that they would be specifically interested in where it is, where they treat primarily orthopedic cases.

Karen Litzy (13:00):

And on that note, we're going to take a quick break to hear from our sponsor and be right back with Adrian's response. This episode is brought to you by net health net house outpatient EMR and billing software. Redoc powered by X fit provides an all one software solution with guided documentation workflows to make it easy for therapists to use and streamline billing processes to help speed billing and improve reimbursement. You could check out net health’s new tip sheet to learn four ways that outpatient therapy providers can increase patient engagement in 2020 at

Adrian Miranda (13:34):

Well, I mean, you can believe that, but it's the cases that you need research to show data, to show numbers, to go to Congress, to go to insurance, to push things and push agendas.

Jenna Kantor (13:44):

Oh, I like what you're saying regarding going to Congress advocating, thank you. Continue. Yeah.

Adrian Miranda (13:48):

So you need to prove that things work. Now there's many things that you cannot get data on or you just haven't created the right methodology for it. So you haven't created the right structure, the right research methods, the right way to capture those results. We're in a big data-driven time right now. So whether you believe that you don't need research and that it's there and we have to utilize it and it is actually necessary to help with reimbursements. So it might not hit you right in the face when the patient walks in, but it's going to hit you somewhere. So yes, research is extremely important. And it's not the end all be all as well. The way we get research is from an evidence case reports from the things that just occur. And then you go back and say, Hey, why did this work?

Adrian Miranda (14:34):

It didn't work. Or it did work and it worked because for all the wrong reasons. But if you don't have a scientific method for that, you're never going to know. Listen in the PR committee. So I'll tell you something. And many of you may be in the technology sector, marketing sector and digital marketing. We analyze what our members were engaging with and it turned out that CPGs our members were engaging with and we actually pivoted a bit more to give you more of that content. And we're seeing that you are engaging with it more. So if we didn't have that data, we wouldn't be able to give you what you want or even what you need. It is very important. You may not see it right away, but there are things that help agendas be moved forward and prove our worth.

Adrian Miranda (15:20):

As physical therapists, you can say it all you want, but if you have numbers, you really can't argue with numbers unless you're dealing with larger entities that have bigger pockets than you. But even at the end of the day, you fight hard enough for it. You're gonna get it. Direct access is moving along okay. And they're saying, we don't have any restricted direct access, but if we didn't have studies that are coming out saying that early intervention, but physical therapy reduces costs of healthcare achieves healthcare savings, we can't push that bill forward because we didn't have the data. Now we do have the data. So I would say that the sometimes or the reason for not agreeing with research has, you know, personal experiences and negative experiences. Maybe not even understanding research and what it does. Maybe you're wasting money on. These are one large universities doing all this data and research, but you need to think about it a little bit differently.

Adrian Miranda (16:17):

And the more research we have, the better research and better data. The more that you'll see we're helping more people in the community. The more that you're seeing businesses, physical therapy, business thriving, and being able to kind of give back to the community and give back to their employees as well. So it's this kind of circle. It's almost like a spin diagram that without research, without the community, without the clinicians to enforce it, we're not going to go anywhere. So I would say those people that don't believe in research it's like air. It's there. You need it. Love that.

Jenna Kantor (16:50):

Start to touch upon it. I want to dive into it. More advocacy. What is it that the orthopedic section, say three things right now that you know of, that they're advocating for on Capitol Hill?

Adrian Miranda (17:03):

Okay. So one of the things that did for the 40th anniversary was create almost like a mini documentary. Which was eyeopening to me. I didn't realize how much the Academy of orthopedic physical therapy advocated for States and governor and national issues. They actually were very instrumental in practice things all over the country and even helping with the right access bills right now at this moment. I couldn't tell you specific things. But if you go look at that video, which I think it was ast year, CSM I interviewed a lot, most if not most of the past orthopedic presidents who actually served on the APTA board. And yes, and some of them currently do it will be enlightening to see how much advocacy in the Academy actually provides. So having said that I couldn't tell you on top of my head exactly what they are working on at this moment legislatively, but just know that they are and they're also helping other components with their efforts and their resource. So if you, again, maybe you don't want to be in the public relations and marketing, but if you have some type of legislative issue or some type of issue that you have reached out to the Academy, they might be able to either guide you, steer you or help you connect with the APTA itself. Anybody in the government affairs, we actually have a committee directly for government affairs.

Jenna Kantor (18:38):

That's great. And you can even go on the website I'm seeing right now there is a tab for governance. It's literally on the major main page, so you go to governance and when you put your little mouse or a little hand on there, it'll go down and you can get information on what they're doing in their strategic plan. You click on that and it will take you into vision statement and goals so you can really see what they're doing right now for the lines with you and what you want them to be fighting for or if you want, there are points you want them to address in which you can then reach out to them to make that difference. Thank you so much, Adrian, for coming on to speak and educate about the orthopedic section. I really am a beginner with this myself because I've been a member for, since I was a first year student and never looked into any of the resources until this conversation right now. I think this is literally with the exception of joining the performing arts special interest group. The only time I've really gone into the the webpage. Oh look and we just opened it up. So current practice issues right now.

Jenna Kantor (19:43):

In what month, we are March, 2020 direct access imaging, dry needling, mobilization versus manipulation and practice issues state by state. And then you can get more details on that as well on You just click on that governance and it'll get you there.

Adrian Miranda (20:03):

Is that answering the question about what issues are being dealt with by the Academy?

Jenna Kantor (20:08):

Yes, that does. That does. And the one who clicked and fell and grabbed that page. So we could just go onto practice, current practice issues and boom, bada bang. Thank you for coming on. Are there any last words you have for anybody who is considering joining the orthopedic section? But they're on the fence right now.

Adrian Miranda (20:27):

Join. There's really no drawbacks. If anything, here's what I recommend to anybody. If you have, there's two aspects. If you really want to get involved, there's someone who has been involved in school or someone who really wants to help other PTs. You wanna help the profession get involved. There's ways to get involved. You can be a member and do nothing and just hang back however you can make such an impact. I've had people recently asked to join or to be able to assist in the public relations committee. If you are somebody who has a lot of gripes and is really upset with what we're doing, go ahead and join anyway because you could actually be a change. I remember having this conversation with somebody in New York state. I was at a PT pub night and they were complaining to me about what this time I was actually in the NYPTA and what the APTA does.

Adrian Miranda (21:11):

And I let him go and just vent. And finally after like 20 minutes of venting, I was like, you know, I'm the chair of this committee, I'm a part of this committee. I'm on the MIP team that the board needs. I thank you for saying all that stuff. And his whole face going to drop. Like, Oh my gosh, I'm talking the wrong person. And I said, no, no, no. The fact that you're that passionate about it, you should join and you should make a change. All of a sudden, you told me you should bring it up at meetings or talk to your district. That's at the state level. At the Academy level. You can do this same thing if you're upset at the laws of dry needling and your state joint Academy, see how you can be part of the practice committee if you're upset about direct access, if you want to get involved in writing, if you want to get involved in editing you know, there's small, obviously there's very few worlds for that, but there are opportunities if you wanna get involved with pure committee, please join.

Adrian Miranda (22:04):

But there's so many things that you can help fix if you're upset about something and there's so many things that you can help improve if you're pleased with it. So I think there are so many opportunities to also enrich your life, enrich some of your skills and goals and even your practice. So I don't think there's any drawbacks to joining. And then we would love to have as many members as possible. You also want to have members that engage. I think when I talked to the board, we have meetings, our main goal and the people who've been around longer is that our members engaged with us. And you're not just someone who's going to sit back and just watch. Although that is okay, we want to be members. But I think it's also important to if you have a skill, if you have a passion and if you want to help our profession or your community get involved in and find where your spot is.

Adrian Miranda (22:48):

There's so many areas. There are seven special interest groups, there's several committees. There are several task force that you can be a part of. So I would definitely encourage you to reach out and listen. Organizations are challenging. There's a lot of people, there's a lot of need out there. There's a lot of different opinions and even it might say, this is an issue in my practice is an issue. My employees is my employers. That reimbursement is patients, this the demographics. There's a lot of things that we can help with numbers. Just like we're talking about research, we have a lot of numbers can be powerful. So if there's anything I can impart is that you can help be part of improving or be part of a change.


Jenna Kantor:

I love that. Thank you so much. Adrian. How can people find you on social media and do you also have an email even for them to reach out to you?

Adrian Miranda (23:36):

Well, how about this? I'll do you one better because I learned it because usher and Gary Vaynerchuk are doing it now. I'll give you my cell phone. Feel free to reach out. I will give you my email just for sure. The social media Academy of orthopedic physical therapy. And my name is Adrian Miranda. You can find me at And my cell phone is 585- 472-5201. I'm very available. So I happy to talk on the phone cause sometimes, actually nowadays that's quicker than an email or even texting back and forth. Send me a text message. I would love to hear your input and hopefully we want to hear how we could be better as well.


Jenna Kantor:

Wonderful. Thank you so much for coming on. Have a great day. Everyone.


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