In this episode, Owner of Access Physical Therapy, Clarence Holmes, Jr, talks about generational differences in physical therapy.

Today, Clarence talks about burnout, the idea of value, and the different ideas of pay structure. Why is the measurement of productivity problematic?

Hear about the promise of mentorship for lower pay, the problem of toxic positivity, and finding the better way in each new generation, all on today’s episode of The Healthy, Wealthy & Smart Podcast.

Key Takeaways

• “The reason why things are fluid and changing with every generation is because there’s always a better way.”
• “We have to be open to that better way.”
• “No one loves PTs as much as PTs love PTs.”
• “It is so heathy to have a full well-rounded conversation that points out the bad and the good, and you don’t have to finish with a positive statement in a conversation.”
• “Get comfortable with being uncomfortable.”
• “It’s become an expectation in this country to overwork.”

More about Clarence Holmes, Jr

Dr Clarence Holmes, Jr is a native of Cleveland MS. He attended Mississippi State University for his undergraduate studies and received his Doctor of Physical Therapy degree from the University of Mississippi Medical Center in 2014. Dr Holmes then completed an orthopedic residency with Mercer university in Atlanta GA in 2015. He has worked in various settings to include sports/outpatient orthopedics, acute care, and the state jail system. Now, he owns and operates Access Physical Therapy, a concierge cash based physical therapy practice in the Atlanta metropolitan area. He also works as a staff physical therapist with Kindred At Home.

Dr Holmes has been involved with APTA at various levels to include 2 terms on the Student Assembly Board of Directors, delegate for the state of Georgia to the House of Delegates, and currently serves as a board member for the Georgia Foundation for Physical Therapy.

In his free time, he also owns and operates The Travel Doctor, a full service travel agency as well as tackling small woodworking projects. He also scuba dives and enjoys traveling the world with his beautiful wife, Turquoise and their golden retriever and chihuahua/terrier mix puppies.

Suggested Keywords

Healthy, Wealthy, Smart, Healthcare, Physiotherapy, Burnout, Generational Differences, Productivity, Mentorship, Improvement,

To learn more, follow Clarence at:

Website:          https://www.accessptatl.com

Twitter:            @matterundrmined

Instagram:       @caholmes6

Facebook:       @clarenceh3

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Read the Full Transcript Here: 

Hello, this is Jenna Cantor with healthy, wealthy and smart. I'm really excited. I am interviewing Dr. Clarence a Holmes Jr. Just wrote on Zoom, or we're doing the interview. And Dr. Clarence who said, just call me clearance. I'm like, Okay, hi, Clarence, said that he works with home health and is the owner of a concierge cash based practice, which everybody who listens knows I'm cash based. I'm like, Yeah, hello, Conrad. I love that so much. Let's serve our people, our patients. We are coming on because we met at a conference. And there was a discussion on generational differences in physical therapy. And Clarence had some real interesting thoughts on this. And I was like, this is a podcast in the making. So I approached him right away. And I said, Can we do this topic and a podcast? And fortunately enough, he said, Yes. Like a proposal. It was beautiful. So here we are talking about generational differences in physical therapy. I think this is a really, really important topic. Now. I just let's just start diving in to one we're saying general racial differences, everyone, please don't refrain from getting offended with how we, how we try to describe this, because this is one we're differentiating between ages. And I saw I saw individuals struggling with that trying to be appropriate. So if we do say anything in our descriptions, inappropriate, feel free, please absolutely correct us. But be nice, because we're doing the best we can. But this is a very important conversation. So we'd rather take the risk in in really diving into the topic. So yeah, just let's all be nice. Okay. So regarding generational differences, I'm assuming that we're talking about the more seasoned crowd, people who have been around for a long period of time, compared to newer people in the physical therapy. Oh, right. Correct. Am I missing anything? Or is there any other way we need to define it?

02:39

No, I mean, and honestly, you're talking about me when you said if you recognize people being uncomfortable, trying to differentiate between these these generations, in conversation without trying to fin that was me at our conference. I didn't want to say the boomer generation, I didn't want to say the millennials simply because a lot of people tie a lot of negative connotations to those. And we're

03:03

also missing Gen X, because Gen X is actually the y'all are the youngest practitioners right now. Not millennials. Yeah.

03:09

Yeah. And I think there's a lot of similar Z

03:12

is Z. Oh, my God, ie, Z. Oh, my gosh, I missed the letter in the alphabet. Yeah. It might

03:17

be x. I don't don't hold me to it. But But, but yeah, so that was one. But But no, you captured it perfectly. I do think there is a a riff between the older generation and the younger generation to just put it put it lightly. Yeah. Just simply because and I mentioned it in the conferences that the older generation are the ones who are owning these practices, traditional practices. And the younger generation, our generation are the ones who tend to be more of the employees. And that's natural. But what's what's unnatural? Well, this is also natural to have some generational difference was unnatural is the riff, the, the battle that kind of comes along with it, and how we respond to it. So

04:03

yeah, so let's, yeah, I love that. Let's do what we're aware. I was very interested. Let's go back and and just do one general generational difference at a time and then if we okay, I feel like that's what pops in our head for now. And that's it. That's great. So one, just named one at the top of your head one Gen. Gen. Oh, my gosh, why is this? So? General? generational difference, let's start with one.

04:29

So I mean, there's two big ones that stick out to me. One is just this idea of pay structure. And specifically in the PT realm of, of how long has someone been here? versus what is this person doing for my company? And the best example I can give is me personally, of working in a job my first job post residency. I'm an ortho I'm a lover, or I will consider myself an ortho PT, even though I work in the home health arena, and the concierge cash base, I will consider myself an orthopedic physical therapist. My first job post residency was at a private practice in Atlanta, and I was paid the least amount of all the therapists across the entire company, which was four practices in Atlanta. But I was the second highest producing therapists in the company. And so, you know, generational differences comes down to the old way of doing things was, who has the most experience, they get paid the most? My personal opinion is, that's not logical, we're, I'm a logical being and a lot of my generation are, if it doesn't make sense to us, we're going to be vocal about it. And it didn't make sense to me that I was producing one paper, more money, better outcomes than the majority of the therapists and I was paid the least, that's one major win. And it kind of feeds into the second you asked for one, but this kind of feeds into it. Younger generations, older generations value loyalty. You know, they expect somebody to come in and work for them for 10 to 1520, almost 30 their entire careers. And my generation just, we're not happy, we're going to move on. And so that puts a lot of responsibility on the employer to find out what makes us happy. And sometimes that just doesn't, that doesn't translate well.

06:39

Yeah, I see where these connect, let's focus on the first one, because that is a really good, interesting point, I have definitely mentored some dance PTS who are burnt out, and they are in a situation where, Oh, Gosh, darn it, what is it productivity, productivity is measured. And that has been very problematic for them, because they'll come in, and they see that they are, they know, they're getting paid less. But they're not more because in your case, you actually saw the data, but they're seeing the, they are seeing the exact number of patients as a seasoned professional, there, and they're just they don't understand why they're getting paid less, if they're seeing the same amount, then they were there, they would imagine, I would be seeing less patients, then that would make more sense, you know, but no, that's not the case. And therefore, that income would still be it is assumed that income would still be made. So it's almost like they're being profit, they're more of a profit is being made off of them. They're exhausted, you know, but they're not getting a lighter load to feed that exhaustion, that adjustment, they're getting treated just the same. And so they don't understand that pay difference when they come in. And I'm going to bounce off this a little bit more because of what the reasoning so it's going to get a slightly off topic, but I'm always okay with that is the promise of mentorship as a reason for why they are paying less that can be a reasoning behind it, which still, there are some clinics that actually provide mentorship, but the majority of them do not actually provide that mentorship, so it's more verbage. Or they have some sort of automated system, that's there maybe videos or something. So there, it's not really an extra effort. It's something that's already there that can help streamline what's going on. Especially if you're in a place that measures the productivity. You can promise it as a as a somebody owns a clinic, however, who's the physical therapist, and how much time do they actually have to really mentor? So if there really, it doesn't make sense, right? This reasoning of oh, why, you know, and these are generational, different thoughts, but for I think that's what you're hitting is that the younger generation will speak their minds and say, hey, you know, they're not getting that mentorship, they're not getting that value for them to go. Oh, that's why then because they get oh, you know what, I'm getting great mentorship, kind of like where people think residencies, getting great mentorship that get one in paying less I get it. I totally get it. That's not the case. No, no, in a lot of circumstances.

09:33

Seven years, I think I've been out seven and a half years for a PT school. And I've never been in an environment outside of residency that that had any type of formal mentorship. But you're correct in that I've have had several interviews with several companies that have promised mentorship because that was important to me. I kind of did less the reason I worked at the job that I did that I'm mentioning in this in this interview. This conversation. The reason I took that job, and I knew I was getting paid less than I was worth. Um, the reason I took it was because my clinical manager and the only person who was more productive than I was a personal mentor, who was my was one of my direct mentors in residency. And so I saw it as an opportunity to continue getting mentored. And so I'm getting an exchange of additional mentorship. I will take less pay.

10:32

Okay, yes. And your, your through your apps, you're like, Oh, yes, yes.

10:36

Correct. But there was no formal mentorship. Now, I did continue work with this guy. I did learn a lot from him. But there was no formal.

10:45

That's a big, that's a big deal. It's not exactly,

10:48

exactly. And there's no when is the end point? I mean, when is the point where I say, Okay, I've received enough mentorship now I'm ready to get paid. Okay. Right. There has to be some kind of trade off there. So. But you're absolutely correct that that is there is a common promise of these employers to employees, younger, generational PTS, of mentorship, in exchange for, you know, lower, less than ideal pay, but is delivered upon.

11:20

Right, right. And I think that's the thing, because there's different ways to work around depending on the clinic, and everything that can happen in these rooms for negotiation. So when these different mindsets come into the room, for it to work out, but you got to follow through on both sides. One is providing the mentorship and the other side is accepting, that's what you accepted, and knowing that owning that. So, but it can be I mean, you know, what I was about to go into different things you can negotiate, but this is not a lesson on negotiation. So I'm going to skip over that. So yeah, when you when you are going into a clinic, I feel like that is a way to potentially solve the problem, but it's just not being solved right now. It's it's still, these gentlemen are the we have people who own these businesses who are getting annoyed about the the younger generation talking about money, but then they're not looking at, they're not really listening and taking in what is being said, because it's it's a block that we can get our own bias on how we lived our lives. And, and we need to get out of ourselves. I say that, as a practice owner, myself, we have to always work to get out of ourselves all the time, in order to better listen, to be with the changes of the world. And the reason why there are changes, but the reason why things are fluid, and it's always changing with every generation and so on, is because there's always a better way. Right? And we may not answer to it. But But there's always a better way. And and you got to figure out, you know, what's what's going to if you really care so much about keeping them around for a long time. And that's, that's a big deal for you. And absolutely, totally get that it's great to have somebody there for a long time, then what is it that they care about? What is it that they care about? You know, and how do you and then if you want to do something that is not financial? Because your your clinic can only afford so much? What are those intangibles that you can bring to the table? Or even the physical therapist coming into work for them? What are those intangibles, and that's where you can really come to the table for a better exchange with those generational differences. I think, you know, and,

13:36

you know, and one of the things that you kind of touched on is that we have to be, there's always a better way, and we have to be open to that better way. And I think that's where we run into an issue of when a younger generational PT says, well, this doesn't make sense to me, I want this amount of money. That's not us complaining. And I think that can be perceived as, as as, as a complaint, US whining, because we were known as the whiny generation. We you know, we complain a lot and what compared to what we're told is that we complain a lot, we're whining, we're never satisfied. And it's not that we're whining. It's not that we're sad. It's just that we grew up in the information age, we know what the PT next was making. Well, we know what the average PT makes. And so we come to the table and ask for this. It's not as whining and it shouldn't be perceived that way and we shouldn't be promoted as the whining generation is annoying. Having the information available to us and trying to benefit on or not even benefit just just be pay. We're given what we're worth. You know, we're rainbows and clouds profession. I mean, we we are a just a happy, just beautiful people and we just love people love everybody. And we're so happy go lucky and lovey dovey and I love that about us. But one thing that we do tend to forget is that the word can mean that we are healthcare practitioners first, but this is also a business. We have to be sustainable, to be able to provide the jobs for our employees, we have to be fulfilled in our careers to be able to provide the care the level of care that our patients deserve. And some of the ways that we do that is to ensure that our employees are happy. Somebody brought up at the conference, the idea of valuing your employees. And value in itself. I think, for us as this lovey dovey profession means so many different things, but value in itself as a word is a financial word. What is the value of me as a a physical therapist? I know my financial value, if you cannot meet that, as you've already touched on, if you can't meet what I'm asking for what else can you meet me, meet me halfway meet me with increase vacation days, maybe with an increase a formal mentorship program. We're supposed to meet and you're supposed to meet me where I am as an employee. And so I think that's where there's a big barrier as well. And that sometimes we're a little bit too focused on intangible things where a lot of or several of us are looking for tangible benefits in my generation. So I think that's a big riff. And it's a it's got to do with our identity crisis in our profession that I said this at the conference. Nobody loves pts. As much as PTS love BTS. And that's our issue as as a profession that we have to address. And I think that kind of that kind of flows over into this this generational difference. Oh, my God, it does. It does. Absolutely. Absolutely. And so that's, you know, I don't want to get too deep here, but I want I actually

16:55

want to bounce off you because, yes, because they popped in my head earlier. And I was like, I just let the idea, you know, because I just want to listen to you. But yes, it's the Pete, the best thing to T PTS, you know, and there's nothing wrong with us, the more seasoned professional that I mean, yes, ever. When I say this, I know they're seasoned. Like, I know, they're sick, we're not perfect. But the C's, they they live on this rainbows and clouds. I'm just saying, I know, it's a harsh way to say it. I hear I hear what I'm saying. But whatever I'm gonna say it. And then we have where the younger generation, I think it's Gen Z, because Gen X is before. So okay, so we have the Gen Z, and the millennials are newer in the profession. And they're not afraid to point out things that they think are wrong. But I think then with that in mind, I think from higher up there is toxic positivity. And I think that's where that comes in. Where it's pushed upon, you cannot say anything bad. But then we lose this honesty and transparency in what's going on in the communication. And, and God forbid, something bad is said, you know, boy, and guess who's on social media, everyone? So if you're talking about, you know, like, oh, there's younger people are complaining. Facebook is older people, man, Twitter is older people. Like there's some younger on there too. Yeah. But like the hotspots to be at are tick tock and mostly ticked in my opinion. Tick tock. Yes. And then I think I never looked at the data. So yeah, but I think Instagram is secondary, but that also has to do with like, how I like to watch the videos personally, I can I can scroll through the Tick Tock thing and then I can go to Instagram Instagrams a little bit not as smooth I go back to tick tock okay. So um, but but that's you know, that's where it's so far talking about all the younger they all they do is complain that's, that's all ages baby. That's all ages, we all we we all like don't I think it is so healthy, to have a full well rounded conversation that points out the bad and the good and you don't have to finish with a positive statement in a conversation about it's okay to end in a gray area. It's okay to end in a dark area and both see it you know, yeah, that is I don't have a solution. Like that's actually that's not a good thing. It's okay. But we but this toxic positivity puts anybody going through anything on the spot if you're anybody who might be oh gosh, dealing with somebody who is has poor health in your family and you can't talk about it or mention it at all and you're yet to put on this face. I get it. That's you know, I'm putting in air quotes professionalism, but professional professional only means literally other profession. Everything else is defined by you. Or defined by me. So literally, that's all perfect. Like everything else is like up in the air up for grabs. however you interpret it. So the you know, took like, place these these random rules on what professionalism, professionalism is from that point on is is purely subjective. And that's where that toxic positivity comes in. Yeah. And then in then we get these risks these butting heads, because everybody has different core values, which is great. And I think that is a huge generational difference and where we lose and miss out on opportunities to listen and hear more.

20:29

Correct, correct. And that's where the issue becomes. I spoke on generational differences, as in the context of what is leading to burnout in early career professionals are the career pts. And I spoke on generational differences as one of the things that I thought was a key key difference. And one thing to note to note is that this isn't specific to pt. It's not burnout is not specific to PT, these generational differences is not are not just specific to physical therapy. This is a doula globally, this is definitely an issue in our country. There are, you know, I'm gonna make this a political conversation. But you know, there are, you know,

21:16

whatever all's fair game when you're with me,

21:20

you see, there's a group of people that believe that, you know, there's no, this is the greatest country on Earth. And that this is there, they would, they would know, they would not live anywhere else. And to say anything bad about our country is anti American. And then there's another generation that says, this is a good country to live in. This is, hey, I'm happy to live here. But there's a crap ton of issues that we need to address to make this country as great as it could be. And so that is, I say all that to say that there is no, I don't think we solve this issue. I don't know if there is a solid solution to the issue. But as I stated before, I do believe there are pptx, specific generational difference issues that we can address. And we should address. And as long as everybody is willing to hear each other out. Yeah, compromise, which is kind of where my conversation was with with the gentleman at the conference that we spoke about earlier. I had an opinion, but I heard him out. And I still don't agree with him. 100%. But I can identify a little bit more with where he's coming from. And I think that's key, I think it's important to have these conversations get uncomfortable with being, you know, get comfortable with being uncomfortable. And have these uncomfortable conversations to say, yes, these are the issues we have with your generation. These are the issues y'all have with mine. Where is that common ground? You know, is they always is, like you said better than we are? And so So, you know, I don't know, I don't know, I'm not the visionary, I see that you I can't give you the solution. I

23:08

don't know where I know, it's just to have a conversation. So that's all we're just having a conversation about this, which I think is great. You know, to get your minds and everyone's minds to start to think you know, are there you know, generational differences and everything. And be careful as you listen, it can be very hard because we there are a lot of people we're going to people help, we're a service business. And with that we get these people pleasing mindsets, where we can lose ourselves. And I would actually say definitely big time in the younger, newer generation. And in order to please the generation that has been around longer, we don't listen to ourselves and just agree it's okay to disagree. It doesn't mean you have to disagree. But really keep challenging yourself to get more and more in tune with what you believe in. And greater conversations can happen, greater solutions, greater growth and progress between all of us can happen, which is so cool. And it may not happen overnight, where you feel comfortable to talk about it. But keep I definitely agree with what you're saying. It's just if you can just keep even if it's a little bit challenge yourself a little bit more every time to just, you know, get there, you know, not easy, not easy. No. I love it. Any any other generational differences that you think oh, Jenna this or have we reached kind of your like, those are kind of the main ones where we

24:41

Yeah, no, I I do think those are my, you know, very inter intertwine those two that I talked about. I don't think that as as a this is sort of like a final word if you Yes, yes. I do think that specifically to this country, we value overwork For example, I, you know, I think that we value the the clinician or the co worker, not just in PT, but in general, we value the person who does the things that they're not required to do as a part of their job. That's what we use to determine who is who's that shining employee, who's the one that that goes above and beyond. Right. And it shouldn't be that I mean, for example, I remember, at this same job, we hit a low point, we hit a low point, always in January, it's an outpatient clinic, deductibles reset, so we're January, it was a low period, had a lot of openings on my schedule, so that everyone else and I was sitting in and getting caught up on documentation, going over some things with my mentor, learning new skills, in walks the owner, are asked, What are we doing? I tell him, you know, I'm trying to learn some things. And he says, Well, why don't we are marketing? I say, What do you mean? He said, you know, your patients, your schedule is low, why aren't you are out, you know, getting us new clients. And I'm like, that's not my job. Is that is you are the employer, you hired me to see the patients that frequent your establishment. Okay, I'm not the one to go out and beg these physicians to send us, okay, how much begging you do, the deductibles reset, that's going to be a phenomenon that happens every single year. So, but that's what the expectation from some employers have. Yes, I hired you to see patients and turning the documentation on time. But in also, I expect you to do these things, these these things that I didn't tell you about in your interview, but we expect you to do these things is become an expectation in this country, to overwork to do things that are not required to view and that is how we measure our employees and not on the job that they do. If you see all the patients on your schedule, go home on time, get your documentation in on time, and it's all you did for the rest of your life as a PT you'd never be promoted and you know in traditional practices so I say that's that's another generational thing is that I think we older generations value overwork working you all you need to be busy all the time. And we value we being the younger generations, a healthy balance of work and home life. I think that is another riff all of these are intertwined, but I think that's a another riff that's that's that's causing an issue, not just in our not just in our profession, but but across this whole country.

27:42

Now, yeah, definitely. I love it. Thank you so much for coming on to talk about this. If you are listening to this podcast, and you have some other ideas and stuff, feel free to write in the comments, just keep the conversation going. I think it's always good to just talk about it. And then And then if you're somebody who's about to go in for job interviews, write these things down for you to consider what you're going to bring to the table for your negotiations track on both sides, what was discussed in that interview? So it's very clear. If things come up that are that we're not included, it's so you can have a better chance of being on the same page. Yes, you're correct. We didn't bring that up, or you know what we need to make sure we bring that up, because that does come up, the more we can be on top of that transparency in the communication can better help address generational differences right off the bat, do keep in mind seasoned professionals owning your own practice when these students are graduating, they have a very low sense in general sense of self worth. So for the overwhelming majority, they usually jump at a job faster than they should. Because they are so excited. Anyone wants them. And that is a big thing that happens often at clinics. So just be aware of that them saying yes doesn't necessarily mean they were listening to what they wanted in the first place. Because they feel so grateful that they were not rejected, they were accepted. And that takes over everything. It helps it feeds into them eliminating what their core wants are because they struggle with self value. Alright, that's it. Where can people find you on the social or email, whatever you feel comfortable with sharing.

29:40

So I laugh when you say the old people are on Facebook and Twitter because that's really what I use is

29:48

and I'm in that category. So I feel comfortable saying

29:51

I'm not a Snapchatter I do have an Instagram. My Facebook name is just mine. That's what I'm primarily on. That's where I'm most entertaining. Book

30:00

is it clearance a home's nobody's claiming homes, clients homes,

30:05

parents homes as well. I'm the one that's scuba diving in my photo.

30:11

If it changes to hiking, everyone's gonna get confused.

30:14

I know why it's not going to just all my photos are nice. And then my instagram name is CA Homes six ca h o l mes the number six. Oh, I

30:27

love it California. You're not from there. But it's fun to say. Wonderful. Thank you so much for coming on. Everyone. If you're listening, please be nice. Be nice. Yeah, you can communicate but be kind. If there is any possibility that what you wrote might be in a way interpreted in a mean tone. Don't write it. I just don't I don't see. Like, honestly, it's just why and I'm not being toxic positive. I'm just being real. Like it's only going to just why why? Like go speak to your legislative representative about it, you know that you can actually make changes. Alright, that's it. Thank you for coming on.

In this episode, President of IFSPT, Luciana de Michelis Mendonça, talks about her research and the upcoming World Congress of Sports Physical Therapy.

Today, Luciana talks about the importance of the WCSPT and the results from her research. Why are organisations like IFSPT important?

Hear about why sports PTs are important in injury prevention and reduction programs, pre-season assessments, implementing prevention programs, and get Luciana’s advice to her younger self, all on today’s episode of The Healthy, Wealthy & Smart Podcast.

Key Takeaways

• “We should assess our athletes to make the most amazing tailored prevention program.”
• “Injuries happen, but if you can decrease the time that the athlete is spent outside the game, then that is a win for the team.”
• “Warm-up sessions with the physical therapist were the methods used to prevent injuries.”
• “Be lighter, less stress, [put] less pressure on yourself.”
• “I am where I am because I’m good at what I do.”

More about Luciana de Michelis Mendonça

Luciana is a professor in a federal university in Belo Horizonte (Brazil) and develops research in the field of sports physical therapy.

She has participated in the last four IOC world conferences on injury and illness in sport with poster and workshop presentations. She was involved in organisation of physical therapy services for the Rio 2016 Olympics and Paralympics Games.

She was the first female president of the Brazilian Society of Sports Physical Therapy (SONAFE), in a country with many restrictions to women's participation in sport and politics. Since 2017, she has been an executive director of the World Physiotherapy subgroup International Federation of Sports Physical Therapy (IFSPT) and is now IFSPT's president.

She is committed to enhancing the dissemination of sports physiotherapy good practice and knowledge globally and to increase equity in sports physiotherapy.

Suggested Keywords

Healthy, Wealthy, Smart, Healthcare, Physiotherapy, Sports, Research, Injury Prevention, Prevention Programs, Exercise,

Recommended Reading

1. How injury registration and preseason assessment are being delivered: An international survey of sports physical therapists
2. How injury prevention programs are being structured and implemented worldwide: An international survey of sports physical therapists

Sign up for the Fourth World Congress of Sports Physical Therapy

To learn more, follow Luciana at:

Website:          https://ifspt.org

Twitter:            @luludemichelis

Instagram:       @lucianademichelis

Subscribe to Healthy, Wealthy & Smart:

Website:                      https://podcast.healthywealthysmart.com

Apple Podcasts:          https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/healthy-wealthy-smart/id532717264

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Read the Full Transcript Here:

00:07

Welcome to the healthy, wealthy and smart podcast. Each week we interview the best and brightest in physical therapy, wellness and entrepreneurship. We give you cutting edge information you need to live your best life healthy, wealthy and smart. The information in this podcast is for entertainment purposes only and should not be used as personalized medical advice. And now, here's your host, Dr. Karen Litzy.

00:35

Hey everybody, welcome back to the podcast. I am your host Karen Litzy. And today I'm very honored and excited to have on the program Dr. Luciana de mckaela Mendoza. She is a professor in a Federal University in Belo Horizonte in Brazil and develops research in the field of sports physical therapy. She has participated in the last four IOC world conferences on injury and illness in sport with poster and workshop presentations. She was involved in organization of physical therapy services for the Rio 2016 Olympics and Paralympic Games. She was the first female president of the Brazilian society of Sports Physical Therapy in a country with many restrictions to women's participation in sports and politics. Since 2017, she has been the executive director of the world physiotherapy subgroup, International Federation of sports, physical therapy or ifs PT, and is now IFSP T's president. She is committed to enhancing the dissemination of sports physiotherapy, good practice and knowledge globally, and to increase equity in sports physiotherapy. And in today's podcast, we will talk about some of her research into injury prevention and the role of sports physiotherapist in those programs. And of course, we will also talk a lot more about the fourth World Congress is Sports Physical Therapy, which is happening in Denmark this August 26, and 27th. That's 2022. So if you want to find more information about that, you can click on the link at podcast at healthy, wealthy smart.com. To find out more about the fourth World Congress is sports physiotherapy, again, taking place in Denmark. So we will talk a lot about that. And we will also get a sneak peek of some of Luciana has talks there. She's speaking and she is moderating. So she's got her hands full for sure. So I want to thank her for coming on the podcast and everyone enjoyed today's episode. Hi, Luciana. Welcome to the podcast. I'm excited to have a conversation with you today. Hi, Carrie. Thank you very much for having me. Yeah, it is my pleasure. And now before we get into the meat of our interview, can you tell the listeners a little bit more about you about your history in sports, physical therapy. And as I mentioned, you are the current president of ifs pts. You can talk a little bit about that as well. So I will hand the mic over to you.

03:06

Okay, Karen, so I'm from Brazil. I'm a sports physiotherapist and I graduated in 2003. So I'm 20 years as a physiotherapist. And I'm also a professor in diversity here in Brazil. I'm based in Belo Horizonte. And

03:28

I started to work. Since the as a students and sports team, I wanted to do physical therapy because of sports. I am passionate about it. And I, I started in this political scenario in the Brazilian society of sports, physical therapy. And I started it was in 2016, it was the year of real to tastic significant part Paralympic Games. So it was a really big challenge. I also work in the physical therapy services during the Olympics and Paralympic game here. And I started being part of the Executive Board of the IFSP CI in 2017. So I learned a lot during the presidency of Anthony Schneider's in Christian torborg. And now I have this big challenge to be IFSEC. President so I'm balancing this actions related to if activity and also with teaching and also research about sports, physical therapy. And my research is mainly directed to injury prevention, and also injury risk profile. So I think that's perfect. And can you talk a little bit more about IFSP T and kind of the importance of having these organizations and what they what they do, what are they there for

05:00

Yes, so the International Federation of Sports Physical Therapy is a subgroup of the word physiotherapy. That's our main our mother organization. So as a subgroup, we have to engage countries all around the world that have specific group related to sports, physical therapy to join the IFSP team. So nowadays, we have 34 member organizations in the SSP T. And our main mission is related to disseminate good practices, support research on sports, physical therapy, of course, and also promote actions to support our members, the whole community. So improve the practices around the world. And also it's a good it's an important way to connect with people. So I think the most amazing gifts that I had, being in IFSP T board is to network with people around the world. So it's a really

06:18

important way to have our professional, our profession, organize it. And so I probably will be in the presidency for the next four years. That's the plan. Yeah, that's, that's amazing. And one of the things that, like you said, as part of the organization is networking, and we'll say this will probably repeat this a couple of times, but the Fourth World Congress is sports, physical therapy is coming up August 26 27th, of 2022 in Denmark, and obviously, you will be there and you are a part of several presentations.

06:57

But like you said, your research is around injury prevention and assessment in sports, in sports. So can you talk about why the sports physical therapist is an important component of these injury prevention programs or injury reduction programs?

07:19

Yes, I just want to stress that, yes, the Congress of sports, physical therapy, it's important action that IFSP t also have, we are one of the main organizations, the main sub groups of world physiotherapy that deliver International Congress. So we have the first one in Bern, the second one Belfast, the third in Vancouver, and now illegal in Denmark. So I, I went to Belfast to Vancouver, and now I will be enabled for sure. So

07:55

I'm sorry, Carrie, I forgot your question. Oh, yeah. No, so my, my question, like I said, you're doing you're doing a ton. You'll be doing a ton in Nyberg. But one of the things that I know you are talking about is about your research that centers around injury prevention, and something that you're passionate about as if the sports physical therapist should really be involved. So why is that?

08:19

Yes. So I always thought that the main action as a sports physical therapy in a sports team, of course, I should be aware that, for me, I need support all athletes available to the coach to the head coach to train. So for me, it's, it was always a good time to have like the physical therapy department, empty without athletes there, because all athletes should be on the fields playing and training.

08:56

So for me, prevention was always important action that we as therapists should be aware of. So I, when I finished my PhD and start to be a teacher in university in Brazil, I started to wander, especially after I started to work in the IFSP. Board, I started to wonder if the prevention, the role that the Sports Physical Therapy had in prevention, and I know that how this works in Brazil because I was sports physical therapist and the volleyball team and soccer team. I was wondering if it was like the same, or I was wondering if it should be the same. Or if we are here in Brazil, we're doing like similar things that other professionals data around the world. So I have a sabbatical year in 2020 and I went to Belgium to work with Eric FitPro.

10:00

I was there in Uganda, the University of Ghana, as a visiting professor. And we started to develop a surveying to understand what role the sports physical therapists had in injury prevention. So I will talk about some of our results, we have two papers about this survey that were that are published in physical therapy in sports. And this helped me to have

10:33

sort of idea about the role. And we have really interesting information about this, that, of course, I will share here in this podcast, and also in the World Congress of sports, physical therapy. And also we develop a Delphi design to establish a consensus on sports injury prevention programs. So this is also an interesting

11:01

study that we could deliver an IFSP participated to, with this Delphi study linking

11:09

people from different countries. So I'm really excited to talk to you about this caring and say something that should make people a little bit curious and participate in the Congress. In Denmark. Yes. So when can can you give us a little bit of info, you don't have to give it all away? Of course, people can go and read the the

11:36

published papers, but in this

11:40

in this study, you had, how many people? What did you find? How did you do it?

11:50

So yes, for sure, I can share some of the data that we had the papers are published. And also you can indicate for your audience, I can send you the links. It's important, I totally understand caring that sports injury prevention area, we need to move forward related to research, we need to understand a lot of things. But I think it's interesting to understand what the professionals what the sports physical therapists are doing, because this can bring up some questions for future research. So

12:29

on the survey, we

12:32

we had 414, sports, physical therapists participating around the world. So I think we had like, people from 32 countries. So I know that the amount is not so high, we could have more people participating, but it was delivered in 2020, during the pandemic. So this is one thing that I should stress because, yes, we had 32 countries participating, but I, for sure, I expected to have more people there. But we had questions in this online survey that was related, link it to the synchronous sequence of prevention that were Matalan delivered, and maybe it's the the most use it, model or to make decisions about prevention. So we ask it if this sports physical therapists participated on injury prevention, sorry, injury registration. It's common here, Brazil, but I didn't know if my colleagues in other countries participating in the injury registration. We also asked if they assess it, the athletes to build the prevention program. So if they did, for example, preseason assessment, that's the more common way at least in Brazil. So I was curious about that. And also, I we asked about their prevention program. So if the pieces participated in this action or not. So about equal registration, the first thing this I think this is an amazing result, because we had more than then 80% of the sports physical therapists that participate in this study, were responsible for me to reverse the situation. So we can now say that maybe the sports physio are the are the person like more important more responsible to properly register injury in their sports team? So this brings brings up a lot of other questions. So for example, maybe we should IFSP T should deliver some actions to maybe

15:00

increase the knowledge and maybe the competence on this matter on our community. Because of course, if we are responsible for this, we want to do an amazing job. So it's, it's interesting. And it's good also to exchange some experience and learn from good examples. So this is really good. And we also ask about the main barriers.

15:29

So for sure now register the injuries. So more than a half of this physios said that lack of time in their routine was the main factor to not properly register injuries. So maybe we need to discuss also about the sports physio routine, inside the sports team. I think we talk we should talk more about this, especially in conferences that we can get together a lot of professionals from different countries, and we can learn from their experience.

16:08

So can I move forward? You have a comment about registration? Nope, I think I think that's good. And I do like that. You said, Hey, maybe this is a chance for us to get together learn from each other. Because perhaps there are ways to streamline this that people just haven't thought of that other people are doing. So you're right. It's a great opportunity for sports organizations, like if SPT to bring sports physical therapist together and say, Well, wait a second, some of you are doing this with some of you aren't. And if it's a lack of time, what can we do to give you a structure that can streamline your process? Yes, exactly. And it's one thing that here needs to be done. We just We can't like, Okay, I'm not going to register injuries, because how can I be sure if I'm going to prevent the injuries if I'm not registering? So if you're not registering, is it like they didn't happen?

17:09

Yes. And another another thing that is really interesting, what is the injury definition? That is sports, physical therapists are using my understanding, we can select different definitions, because this maybe rely on the sports modality.

17:32

But we need to talk more about this, I think we should

17:37

exchange and learned and maybe from this, maybe if aspartate can deliver some guidelines, I don't know, because it's one of our missions. Also to make the FSB T is the main resource for the Sports Physical Therapy community. So I think we will maybe in the future, we are going to have more actions based on the findings of so I'm really excited about this. Okay, so let's move on to preseason assessment. So how many are performing? And what are the barriers? I know that this is this, topics of little bit controversial, I know that we have a group that thinks that we should assess, and another group of sports physio, or research thinks that we, we don't need to. But our survey shows that 77% of the participants perform preseason assessments in their athletes.

18:45

So 222 sports fields, said that they do. This is amazing information. And I didn't expect for this high percentage.

18:59

And I was happy because I believe that we should assess our athletes to make the most tailored, most amazing tailored prevention program for our athletes. I know that this is a challenge. I totally understand this. But if I think about myself as a sports, physical therapy, if I'm working in a sports team, I will like I will do my best to assess the athletes and try to deliver

19:30

into an individualized prevention programs. So but we have like, opposite side here because only 30% of these sports physical therapists that do preseason assessment, customize the provincial program bases in the results of the assessment.

19:54

So this is a point that we need to understand better. We need to understand what is happening. Why

20:00

They sports fees you give energy to assess the athletes, but they don't apply the results to build the prevention program.

20:11

So we didn't

20:14

ask it like specific questions about this. To understand this, we only asked about the barrier. So the main barrier

20:23

that was indicated to not before assessment, it was lack of structure and organization of the sports team.

20:33

So about half of the participants indicated this barrier.

20:38

I understand makes sense, but I'm not sure if this barrier explain 100% of the reasons to not perform the precision assessment. And I think maybe this is also relied on the evidence that we have related to these. We have big discussions about injury prediction probability. So maybe we need to make some advance in research about this topic. And maybe we need to talk more about this to make more like have this issue more clear to everyone, specially the clinician.

21:22

Because I think so now, it's my opinion. Okay. I think we need to assess our athletes, and maybe maybe even the process of assessment should be discussed. Because if we, if we are here in a roundtable with sports, physical therapists, and we ask how you assess your athletes, which tests do you select, probably carrying, we are going to have different answers. So I don't I'm not sure what this means. It means that we don't have standards. We don't have like a protocol. Should we have a protocol? I don't know. But what I know is that we need to talk more about this. Yeah, I mean, oh, go ahead. Sorry. No, no, I just like, I just want to say that I was really happy with the the results that sports fields with a majority is performing a preseason assessment. But on contrary, I was I get a little sad to see that not like 1/3 of them are really applying the Results to Build provincial programs. And yeah, and so I brings up a couple of questions for me, and that is, have you seen preseason assessments? Decrease injury, are they and again, this goes on? I think what you just said that sort of prediction and probability. So if you do a preseason assessment, does that predict less injuries? I don't know. Have you seen? What are your thoughts on that?

23:06

Thank you for asking this caring, I think

23:10

preseason assessment. The main propose is not to predict injury, they may propose is to identify those athletes with more susceptibility or probability to get the injury and then we can act before this happened. I'm not saying that if we perform a preseason assessment and beta prevention program on the results, our athletes not going to get into I'm not saying that injury, always going to happen sports, but we can, for example, decrease the severity.

23:52

So if I have one athlete that I can, for example, I apply the stars question balance test, and I see that this athlete have a really low stability, functional stability in the lower league. So I can include in their provincial program, exercise to improve the stability, and maybe he will, he will, like have the ankle sprain, but I can decrease the severity.

24:26

So I will decrease the time loss. I will make this athlete more available to the head coach at the end. That's my reasoning on preseason assessment. And I think there is a misconception about this issue also. Right? Because I think, you know, if we're playing devil's advocate, some people may say, well, the preseason assessment isn't going to eliminate injuries. Why am I why am I doing it? Right? But like you said, injuries happen. But if you can decrease the severity if you can decrease the time that the athlete is spent out of the game

25:00

Yeah, then that's a win for the team. And it's a win for the coach in the organization. But if only 30% If if you have all of these sport physiotherapist doing a preseason assessment, then only 30% customize the program. Now we have to come up with some incentives for that physiotherapist to customize

25:19

the program for the athlete. And again, that may be like you said resources available to them, if it's one person and 50 players,

25:30

that it's difficult, you know that that's that that's quite difficult. But

25:37

I can understand how this can be a very frustrating part of research, because there's a lot of moving parts. And it's not just the sport physiotherapist, who has all best intentions and at at the heart of, of of their work. But there's a lot of external factors that need to come into play. But

26:03

I do I also like your that idea of being on a round table with sport physiotherapist and saying, Well, what do you do? What do you do? And maybe like you said, I don't know if a protocol is right, but maybe some sort of a roadmap where you have some basic assessments, and then you have the freedom and the ability to get creative, but to have certain certain things in there that makes sense for that sport?

26:31

Yes, I totally agree with you. Here in Brazil, I have a lot of colleagues and friends that came from the Brazilian society of sports, physical therapy. So we talked a lot in exchange a lot. So I, I myself, I have my challenges related to really delivering the prevention program that I i understand that would be like the best thing to do. But of course, this also relies on the relationship with the head coach, district parenting coach. So it's a lot of factors variables that we need to understand. And that's, that's really individual. It depends on the context of each sports team. So that's what I when I say that maybe we don't, we will not have like a protocol, because it depends on the sports team reality. But I agree with you that we can give maybe some roadmap to help everyone to organize better, considering the context, right? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Oh, that's yeah, that's that really opens up a can of worms for people. That being said, let's move on to prevention programs. So what did you find with that?

27:53

Yes, so about the prevention program, we see that warm up.

27:59

sessions with the physical therapists were the methods more use it to prevent injury. And I think about warm up this was already expected because it was one roadmap that FIFA 11 Plus gave to everyone, not only for soccer, we have evidence on basketball, handball players. So FIFA 11 Plus really helped in this maybe this

28:31

basic organization, and how to deliver some preventive action in a more easy and accessible way. So I think it's really interesting that this survey, like confirm that one map, it's a really good strategy to include the provincial probe on athletes routine, because the athlete will need to warm up. So we have this moment, and why not. So instead of make the athlete do like,

29:06

whatever exercise or just running on the field, why not to be more specific and includes exercise that the athletes really need to do based on the sport modality.

29:20

Epidemiology. So for example, we know that in soccer, we have a lot of famous hamstring strain, we have a lot of ankle sprain, knee sprain. So why not to include some melodic at the size it some balance exercise? I think this is a really

29:38

important action that every old sports physical therapist needs, so be engaged and participate and about the individual sessions with the sports physical therapists. It's important to us and then I really expected some information around this

30:00

because we know that we have some time zone athletes that need a specific exercise that needs to be delivered by the physical therapist. So I was happy to say this because this was the methods more use it more indicated by our participants. And above the barrier, we saw that lack of time in athletes routine was the main barrier to perform the provision. This was indicated by 66% of the participants.

30:34

Of course, I expected results. And that's why warm up, it's important action because this is already in adults routine, we don't need to change the routine to include one more time and period to do

30:51

the exercise related related to prevention. So again, carry I don't know if this only this area only about athletes routine, we can understand why we can't perform major prevention. And as I said, Before, I understand the challenges. I think it's not easy. But I think it's a wonderful, it's a wonderful action that sports physical therapists participate. And it's really, of course, important for our athletes health, not only performance, because we have evidence that provincial programs also increased performance. But also I'm concerned about athlete's health, we need to, of course, help the athlete because no one wants to get into it. So this is really, it was really important.

31:49

For information that is the also indicated and these information helped us. So sort of build the questions related to the consensus, that was our second step during my experience in Ghent University with Eric.

32:11

Right. And so at W CSPG. You're going to show some data about the Delphi consensus, so you don't have to give all that away, people can go to the conference to hear more about that. But if you want to give a little preview, now's your time. So you what are the main topics investigated?

32:31

So about our Delphi, we organized the consensus in three parts. So the first part was related to how the thesis should plan the provincial programs. So this planning was about the information or the reasoning to develop the injury prevention program. So this is interesting, because we have information that, for example, sports, physio, use the reasoning related to biomechanics, or the base decision only on evidence and injury, Epidemiology, or athletes, injury history. So we have this kind of information and result and this is really brings up some discussions. So I hope that on the conference, I can, we can have this moment to discuss about our information, our data. The second part was about the organization. So how work environments before the implementation, how this affects the delivering the injury prevention programs. And the third one is about the implementation phase that I know that there is a lot of discussion and research, we have a specific we have specific groups of research that really go deep in this matter of implementation. So in this third phase, we identify barriers and facilitators to implement the injury prevention programs, and also related to compliance, if visibility. So this is how we organize the Delphi. It was a huge amount of work from all the core authors that participated in this study, and really happy that we can now say that this is accepted in physical therapy in sports generally, we can now really disseminate

34:39

this information, and I'm really happy to be part of this. Yeah, well, congratulations because that is a ton of work. And again, if people want to learn more about this, then you can come to Nyberg August 26 27th The Fourth World Congress is Sports Physical Therapy in Denmark.

35:00

And I mean, who doesn't want to be in Denmark in the summer? Right? I mean, amazing. Yeah, this will be my first time in Denmark. So my I am excited. So of course, no Denmark, but also to meet my friends from Sports Physical Therapy community, specifically before this, sorry, after this pandemic. Yeah. So I really miss my friends. And I really excited to talk more about injury prevention. And so our consensus results, and exchange and networking with everyone there. Yeah. And where can people find you? If they have questions? If they you know, we'll have the links to the studies that you mentioned in the show notes. So if people read that, and they have questions, where can they find you?

35:53

Yes, Carrie, so I am on social media. So I have my Facebook profile, Instagram, it's with my name, no change at all. And also in Twitter, is Lulu the chalice so you can find me there. And we can keep talking about information. IFSEC. I invite everyone for be like in the World Congress of sports, physical therapy, it's in August. So I'm really excited to be there. And I hope to see you there all for caring. Yeah, I will be there. I'm looking forward to it. And now final question that I asked everyone knowing where you are now in your life and in your career, what advice would you give to your younger self? Good question. Okay. So maybe, first, I would say to my own self, congratulations, you are an amazing woman in you accomplished a lot.

36:52

For sure, I never thought that I would be where I am now. As IFSP President working in federal, probably the most important federal university here in Brazil. So I'm really happy. If I could give her some advice should be be more lighter, less stress, less pressure on yourself, Luciana.

37:23

But at the end, we don't don't care if this increased pressure or stress, help in a way.

37:31

me to be here where I am. Or if I could go through this path. Be more.

37:41

I don't know light. I think the word is like, Yeah, I think so. And, and I love the fact that you said you know, you would congratulate yourself. And I think celebrating wins and celebrating what we do are things that women don't often do. Right? We're always sort of congratulating others and putting others up, but we never sort of congratulate ourselves and celebrate our wins. And, and I think if I were to go back and tell my younger self, something that would be it, like stop making yourself smaller so that other people can be bigger. It's a constant exercise. I didn't accomplished my winnings, my victories so often, but now I can see clearly that I am where I am, because I'm good in what I do. So perfect. What a way to end the podcast. I think that's great. So again, people can see you live in Nyberg, August 26 and 27th. At the fourth world, Congress is sports, physical therapy, you again will have the link on the conference and how to sign up. And we certainly encourage everyone to do that. Like you said, What a great way to meet up with colleagues to get some really great information and be in a beautiful place while you do it. Yeah, exactly. And on August 25, five, we are going to have a network session delivered by FFTT. So we are going to have also this moment to get together and exchange. Perfect. Is there anything else? You know, you're the president? So is there anything else that we missed? Talking about the conference that you want to let people know is is also happening? We are going to have an interesting conference because it's going to be I think the first World Congress of sports, physical therapy that we're going to have specific moments to do sports in the program. So we are going to have this more serious moments to talk more about our practices and research but also light moments to practice sports and be more friendly there. Yeah, so basically bring your workout clothes is what you're saying. Yeah,

40:00

Oh, yeah, that's exactly perfect. Perfect. And I don't think I mentioned that when I spoke to Katie so I'll be mentioning that moving forward that bring your sneakers bring your workout clothes, that traditional

40:13

well here in the US for whatever reason, people like always wear suits to these things.

40:20

So don't don't worry about the suits, but definitely bring your workout gear. Yes. Perfect. Perfect. Well, Luciana, thank you so much for taking the time out today and coming on to the podcast to talk about all the great stuff you're doing. Thank you so much. My pleasure, Kara. Thank you so much, and everyone thanks so much for tuning in. Have a great couple of days and stay healthy, wealthy and smart.

40:43

Thank you for listening and please subscribe to the podcast at podcast dot healthy, wealthy smart.com. And don't forget to follow us on social media.

In this episode, Nigerian Sports Physiotherapy Association Founding Member, Ummukulthoum Bakare, talks about her important research and advocacy of sports physiotherapy.

Today, Ummukulthoum talks about her research on women’s football, the issue of compliance and adherence, and the next steps in her research. What are the challenges for women football players, and how are they mitigated?

Hear about her experience advocating for sports physiotherapy, her presentation on The Unbreakable Young World Athlete, and get her advice to her younger self, all on today’s episode of The Healthy, Wealthy & Smart Podcast.

Key Takeaways

• “Passion will drive you.”
• “The increase in projections of the numbers of registered football players has skyrocketed by the participation of women in football.”
• “Coaches need to understand that they can be empowered to take charge.”
• “You don’t have to think of injury prevention as this thing that is separate. It needs to be integrated.”
• “Nothing is impossible. If you can dream it, you can do it.”
• “The sky isn’t the limit anymore.”

More about Ummukulthoum Bakare

Ummukulthoum Bakare is a Doctorate Candidate in Sports Physical Therapy at the University of Witwatersrand in South Africa. Her research is focused on women’s football and injury prevention.

She is a founding member of the Nigerian Sports Physiotherapy Association and is active in disseminating the FIFA11+ injury prevention programme in her native country and across Africa. Her passion has centred around the sports of football, basketball, and para-athletes and injury prevention. She received her Bachelor of Physical Therapy and her Master of Physical Therapy from the College of Medicine, University of Ibadan, Nigeria.

Ummukulthoum has worked as a physical therapist since 2001 and has won several awards for her service locally, regionally, and internationally. She is a member of the Medical and Scientific Commission of the Nigeria Olympic Committee and an Associate Editor for the British Journal of Sports Medicine.

Suggested Keywords

Healthy, Wealthy, Smart, Healthcare, Physiotherapy, Sports, Research, Injury Prevention, Women’s Football, Empowerment, Advocacy,

Third World Congress of Sports Physical Therapy

To learn more, follow Ummukulthoum at:

Website:          https://www.facebook.com/nspa.org.ng/

Twitter:            @koolboulevard

Instagram:       @koolboulevard

Subscribe to Healthy, Wealthy & Smart:

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Read the Full Transcript Here: 

00:07

Welcome to the healthy, wealthy and smart podcast. Each week we interview the best and brightest in physical therapy, wellness and entrepreneurship. We give you cutting edge information you need to live your best life healthy, wealthy and smart. The information in this podcast is for entertainment purposes only and should not be used as personalized medical advice. And now, here's your host, Dr. Karen Litzy.

00:35

Hey everyone, welcome back to the podcast. I am your host Karen Litzy. And in today's episode, I'm really honored to welcome UMO cooltone Bukhari she has a doctorate candidate in Sports Physical Therapy at the University of Witwatersrand in African South Africa. Her research is focused on women's football and injury prevention. She is a founding member of the Nigerian sports physiotherapy Association, and is active in disseminating the FIFA 11 Plus injury prevention program in her native country and across Africa. Her passion has centered around the sports of football, basketball and para athletes and injury prevention. She received her Bachelor of physical therapy and her Master of physical therapy from the College of Medicine University of Ibadan in Nigeria UMO kooltherm has worked as a physical therapist since 2001, and has won several awards for her service locally, regionally and internationally. She is a member of the medical and scientific commission of the Nigeria Olympic Committee, and an associate editor for the British Journal of Sports Medicine. So in this episode, we give you all a sneak peek of what she is going to be speaking on as one of the guest speakers at the fourth World Congress of Sports Physical Therapy, which is taking place August 26, to the 22nd 2022 and Nyborg Denmark. If you want more information on the WC SPT conference, head over to podcast at healthy wealthy smart.com. Click on the link in the show notes under this episode. If you can, I highly suggest signing up and joining us in August in Denmark. So Lumo coutume is just one of many speakers that we're going to be highlighting over the next couple of months. We have a great conversation today about the unbreakable Young World athlete which she will be speaking about Nyberg. So everyone enjoyed today's episode and be on the lookout for more speakers coming up in the next couple of months. Hey, Katie, welcome to the podcast. I'm really happy to have you on.

02:43

It's lovely to be here, Karen. Thanks for having me. Yes. And like I said in the intro, gosh, you are a real rock star in the physiotherapy world. So you are a founding member of the Nigerian sports physiotherapy Association. You are a member of the medical and scientific commission of the Nigerian Olympic Committee and an assistant editor for the British Journal of Sports Medicine. And so that leads me to my first question is How important do you feel these associations are for the profession?

03:20

Thank you, Karen. It's is really very important, especially from my side of the

03:27

of the continent where we have very limited resources. And it's always a good opportunity to connect with other colleagues from around the world. When we first started the the Nigerian sports physiotherapy Association, were just a handful of people who, you know, came together to say, look, if we did start an association like this, it would help us be able to connect with other colleagues and associated other associations from around the world. And then we connected with IFSP T, which also given us a lot of opportunity to connect with the rest of the sports PT world globally. And that has kind of enriched us over the years. And I'm happy to say that Nigeria was also the first African country to be affiliated with IFSP T. And we still have a great relationship till today. And I'm also actually, I think, the first African and the IFSP T board. The executive board. I was elected in 2019 in the last Congress in Canada, for the Nigeria Olympic Committee. That took a lot of work because it's actually by appointment. And over time, it had only just been physicians. There hasn't been any room for physios to get on board, but I think for somehow I just kept well with the National Society. I'd be the Nigel site of physiotherapy, I just kept pushing to get on visit

05:00

ability for physios get us to get, I mean, get the Olympic Committee to also organize specialized training for physios and all of that, and I was doing all this work, making sure that where they were conferences happening, I wanted them to, you know, support people to attend and all that, and a former vice president of the Olympic Committee, and as I look, I think you'll bring your loved one on board. And I'd like to nominate you to be on the on the medical commission. And I was like, Okay. And

05:34

when I got in, I was the only female and I was the only physio. But I am glad that we time a lot of things have changed. Because one of the key things I'm passionate about is to give room to allow upcoming and early career sports medicine stakeholders, be it physio psychologists, you know, doctors, physicians, but give room for the younger ones to be supported and, you know, have access to all the IOC courses and things like that. So I it's been, it's not been an easy journey, but I think you can change a lot more from the inside than the outside. And that's, that's why I took on the assignment. And so far, so good. It's, it's worked out. Yeah, it's slow. But it has worked out a bit. Yeah, amazing. And I was going to my next question was going to be what, what has it been like for you to kind of be the first to have a seat at the table? Right, the first woman which I'm not surprised, and the first physio to kind of have that seat at the table, what has that been like for you? And what lessons have you learned?

06:43

Um, to be honest, it was not a really easy thing to do, especially when you are in the middle of about, you know, 12 other people who, and you probably also are the youngest. Let me add that, even though I don't consider myself young, per se, but in that tool,

07:06

I was the youngest. So but I think luckily, I What sort of helped me was that I spoke with the chairman. And I told him Look, this is

07:18

this is the ideas that I have. And I feel like I know there's a lot of work that needs to go on behind the scenes, I'm happy to do all the heavy lifting, or writing and all that, but we need to push for more things to achieve our mandate. And he was very happy with that. And later, a lot of a lot of the other board members just felt like Okay, it looks like we have somebody who's willing to do all this heavy lifting with you know, writing proposals and stuff. And we just kind of make things work. And somehow they just realized that I wasn't really doing it for any self. For myself, as it were, I was trying to get us to have a better a wider ecosystem for sports medicine resource, be it physios, doctors, you know psychologists, pharmacists, nutritionists and stuff like that. And so far, so good. We've we have quite a sizable number of young, early career people coming on board, a lot more people are not interested in sports, physio and all that. And which is because before now, nobody really wanted to do sports physio, they felt like,

08:26

you know, you're, you're never going to be rich. Like you're always just

08:31

the government is always owing you money. And so why are you a physio per se but then I tell them that look, passion will drive you it is just a calling and you really need to understand that.

08:44

What can in any another prefer in any other specialty or physio? It's quite rewarding as a sports physio as well, if you if you're driven by the right

08:55

circumstances. So yeah, it's not going to be easy, because half the time you'll find yourself like a fish out of water, especially being a female

09:05

where you're working multisport settings and you have to work with male team and all of that you have to hold your own. But it's it is rewarding. And yeah, so yeah. And it sounds to me like some of my students. Yeah, some big lessons. There are one, being willing to put in the work and to opening the door so you can help bring other people in. It's not opening the door for yourself and closing it on everyone behind you. No, no, because there definitely has to be a transitional plan. What is the sustainability of whatever you're doing? Because at the end of the day, your time is going to come and go. So who are the people that you're empowered to continue that journey, the vision and to be able to achieve

09:51

you know, the end goal of making sure that there is that continuity, and that you have, you know, so they pay forward and they can

10:00

didn't pay forward until, you know, for as long as as needed. And we would have a big pool of sports physios because I can tell you that Nigeria is over 200 million people, and maybe about 10 million active Lee involved in sports at a competitive level. And we still don't have enough physios to cater for that number.

10:27

So there's still a lot of work to be done. I can't do it alone. It's a collective team effort. Yeah, I mean, you have to increase the capacity. Exactly. Right. So that that all of these 10 million people, which is a huge number of people cannot be seen by estimating. It could be more, right. Definitely. Yeah. So obviously, you don't have the capacity for all of that. So if you can open that door and bring in a lot of like enthusiastic, like you said, physios, physicians, psychologists, nutritionists to help you continue to build up the capacity of a sports medicine program across the country, you'll be able to reach more people. Exactly. And that's what it's all about. And now, let's talk about your research. So you've got this passion of building up the capacity for sports medicine in Nigeria, let's talk about your research, which I know you're also passionate about. So I'll hand it over to you.

11:31

Okay, so I'm currently working in women's football. I mean, it is what it is because women really don't get much attention for anything, even in football, and for research specifically, as well. But as we all know that the

11:49

increase in projections of the numbers of registered football players has skyrocketed by the participation of women in football. And we know that for women's for women, we are more or less we have certain

12:08

certain factors, that puts us at higher risk of injuries. We know football has burden of you know, contact injuries and all that but can reduce the injury rates of non contact injuries. Now, because women I hire, that when population were what areas due to biomechanical factors, biological factors as a result of hormones and stuff, biological become biomechanical because of, you know, pelvic hip ratio, you know, being at higher risk of ACLs. So you want to be able to minimize that risk. And how to do that is to actively engage in injury prevention. So trying to bridge the gaps, especially in a low resource setting where we don't really have much human resources, infrastructure and all of that, and people still want to play football. So my research is trying to bridge the gap with the population of women playing football, and the use of an evidence based, comprehensive warmup program, which is the FIFA 11. Plus, it is a basic injury prevention program, but it works. But it's not going to work if people don't know about it and compliant with using it. So it's trying to find out what are the challenges in the setting? And how can we mitigate these challenges to be able to improve compliance and adherence, and be able to achieve injury prevention goals, because even on a global scale, compliance, and adherence is a big issue with anything. So, um, since we also know that we have to always tailor things to the broader ecological context, or whatever we're doing. It's not one size fits all, because you have to figure out what are the things that can work in this setting? How can we adapt that can we adjust certain things and whose responsibility is going to take the leadership of the injury prevention philosophy, how this behavioral change is gonna affecting? So this is this is a research that I was working on, or I'm concluding at the moment. And I'm really excited because now I think FIFA also is doing trying to do a lot of stuff for women's football. So hopefully, that can help. You know, in the next five years, we'll see women's football going to a different level than we are right now. Yeah. And you know, as you're talking about that and talking about the resources or lack thereof, it really makes me think I'm in New York City. I'm in the United States where we have an abundance of resources, and people still don't comply with injury prevention programs, right. And so I can't imagine being in

15:00

In a part of the world where you don't have the the manpower, the end all of the things that we have here, yeah, yeah, in order to make these programs stick.

15:13

Exactly. So this is one of the things that I found out is, along the course of my research, is that coaches need to understand that they can be empowered to take charge, rather than coach to see me as a medical person, like trying to take over their job, I'm not trying to take over your job, I'm only trying to help the team so that he can have more players available for selection and team can do better because at the end of the day, it's inversely proportional, the less injuries in the team, the more the team, you know, can can can progress and be successful. So at the end of the day, I think the messaging also matters, the messaging about, Okay, Coach, if you do this, you're going to have more players available for selection. And when you do have more players available for selection, then your team has a better potential to fight for the title to get to win a trophy. And when that happens, you get a bonus or something in your pocket. And it all everybody sort of it's a win win situation when your players do or injury free. They have longer carrier carrier longevity and so many other things. So the reason begins to change, you know, begins to change and at the end of the day. And then another thing I say to them that look, you don't have to think of injury prevention as this thing that is separate. It needs to be integrated. And there is no flexibility to adapt

16:45

and just integrate, it will still work. The most important thing is that you are committing at least twice a week for these exercises to be done. And you will see the difference that it brings to your team. Yeah, it's all about incentives. Right? How can you how can you meet the people where they're at with the incentives they need? And like you said, it's all about the messaging? Yes. Okay, wait, mindset changes, right. And that kind of takes us into I think what you're going to be speaking about at the fourth World Congress is sports physiotherapy, which takes place August 26 and 27th of this year in Nyborg, Denmark, and that is the unbreakable Young World athlete. So talk to us a little bit about that, and a little bit about your presentation. We don't give it all away, of course, you know, we want people to come and see you live, so we're not giving it all away.

17:46

We can dangle some highlights out there.

17:50

Okay, so the first thing is, I think that right now, everybody knows the potential of sports. So

17:58

everybody wants to start young. Now the pressure there on the young athlete is to begin to perform at a professional level at a young age. And that impacts a lot of things in terms of because you know, the type of dedication that you need to, to perfect, whatever sport that you're doing. And, you know, many parents and guidance, everybody wants, oh, I want my child to be Cristiano Ronaldo, I want my child to be messy. Now the pressure is much on these kids. And one of the biggest challenges that then these the burden of having to deal with that kind of pressure, whether physically, psychologically, and every other thing that makes up these young athletes would really be a huge load for young athletes out there. How can we balance that? Now, I will be talking from the perspective of law resource where I'm coming from a lot of many people.

18:57

In the developed countries, they have a lot of support for young athletes. And be it nutrition wise psychology, and so many other things that you we don't have the luxury of that. And many times, the kids who just want to play like they don't want to do anything serious or anything like that. But there's still the pressure and demand on them to excel. Because people see that if you if you're a good sports person, or you're able to make a break in either football or basketball, which is one of the top spots in Nigeria, then we can change our economic situation. And that helps us out of poverty, and all this kind of and all this type of thing. So I'm just going to be talking from that perspective of low resource and how the young athletes

19:50

as much as you want to encourage sports participation, but there has to be that striking balance to enable them to succeed

20:00

That's a lot of pressure on a young kid.

20:03

Yes, yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, I know I'm definitely looking forward to that talk in Nyborg. Is there anything else that you're working on projects moving forward? Anything you're looking forward to in the future, whether it's future research, speaking gigs, getting more involved in in the profession as a whole? What do you have coming up?

20:30

Okay, so I'm trying, I'm rounding up my doctorate right now. So hopefully, I can get a postdoc position as well to continue to work in women's football.

20:44

That is what I'm hoping for the next maybe six months there about, but other projects that I'm passionate about involves power athletes, I'm very, very passionate about walking with our athletes, because also they too, were like a minority

21:01

group. But I see that they are really the super humans, you know, with everything. And with the limited resources and everything you can think of the still strive very hard I want to get on on the world stage. They are the ones who put Nigeria on the on the on the map for medals, because I was with the team in 2016, in Rio, and

21:27

we won eight gold medals, set new eight world records.

21:33

So I feel like yeah, there's a lot more that I want to learn. And

21:39

I'm also trying to do some technical courses. And

21:44

there's something called classification for power athletes, where it's like, you're trying to make sure that all the athletes are classed,

21:53

in in the desired classes that they can compete on a level playing ground. So apart from the technical officials, they also need the medical people to come and do all the assessments of you know, movement, muscle power, and all these things, just to be sure that, okay, we have classes athletes properly, and they can compete without having undue advantage over the other colleagues in a similar category. So yeah, so I think that's really the next thing that I want to do. It sounds amazing.

22:27

Some of my students trying to move on to postgrads. I've just provide them some of my own shares, some run experience, support them along the way as well. And so that's, that's what I think I'll do. Amazing. Well, it sounds like you have a busy time coming up and doing really, really great work. So congratulations on all of that. And now where can people find you? If they want to reach out to you? They have questions. They have thoughts, where can they find you?

22:56

Okay, so you couldn't find me on social media? You'll see on Twitter, it's at cool Boulevard.

23:04

And it's also the same handle on Instagram at cool Boulevard. So and that's cool with a K, correct? Yes. K with the K Yeah, yeah. And we'll have all of that information and links directly to all of your social media in the show notes for this podcast, so people won't have to search too far. And now as we wrap things up, one last question that I asked everyone, it's knowing where you are now in your life and career, what advice would you give to your younger self?

23:35

Um, nothing is impossible. If you dream it, you can do it. So just surround surround yourself with people who will always find your flames. People will always ginger you to keep going. And I think, you know, the sky isn't the limit anymore.

23:55

You can keep going so that I'll give to my younger self. Excellent advice. And just if people want to see Katie speak in person, like I said a little bit earlier, she will be speaking at the fourth World Congress is sports, physical therapy, August 26, to the 27th of this year, 2022 and Nyborg, Denmark. So again, we'll have a link for that as well. So you can go on and take a look at the whole program and sign up and come to Denmark in the summer, which I'm assuming is going to be great. I've never I've only been there in February when it's pretty chilly and snowy and rainy. So I'm excited for I'm excited to go. And I'm excited to listen. I have never been to Denmark. This will be my first time. So yes, I am looking forward to meeting you. And the rest of the delegates from around the world. Yeah, it's gonna be great. So Katie, thank you so much for taking the time out and coming on today and talking about all the great work you're doing. We are all inspired. So thank you so much. Thank you for having me.

25:00

and looking forward to see you soon. Yeah and everyone thanks so much for listening. Have a great couple of days and stay healthy, wealthy and smart.

25:08

Thank you for listening and please subscribe to the podcast at podcast dot healthy, wealthy smart.com. And don't forget to follow us on social media

Today, Kerry talks about her research into sports injuries, developing training programs, and evaluating feasibility and adherence to programs. How can greater neck strength assist in reducing head and neck injuries?

Hear about measuring neck strength, defining “normal” neck strength, and get Kerry’s advice to her younger self, all on today’s episode of The Healthy, Wealthy & Smart Podcast.

Key Takeaways

• “You wouldn’t send an athlete out without doing knee exercises, and yet we do it quite regularly with the neck.”
• “We need to do some isometric exercise but with ballistic intent.”
• “I don’t think isolated neck exercises is going to give you the best bang for your buck.”
• “The best exercise is the one they’re going to do.”
• “We need to make sure that the research in this space is high-quality research.”
• “We need to be more critical in the way that we apply research in neck strengthening.”
• “If you’re really good at designing exercise programs, get creative.”

More about Kerry Peek

Dr Kerry Peek (PhD) is a physiotherapist, behavioural scientist, strength-and-conditioning coach, and sports injury researcher with the University of Sydney. She has over 20 years of clinical experience in both Australia and the UK working with many athletes across a range of sports, age groups, and playing levels, including elite athletes in football (soccer), rugby, motor racing, American football, and athletics.

Her current research is focussed on mitigating sports related head and neck injuries and has just completed a project on neck strengthening and heading funded by a FIFA Research Scholarship. Kerry has presented to the UEFA medical committee and assisted in drafting UEFA's heading guidelines.

Kerry is the Chair of the New South Wales State Council for Sports Medicine Australia.

Suggested Keywords

Healthy, Wealthy, Smart, Healthcare, Physiotherapy, Research, Injury Prevention, Neck Strength, Exercise, Training,

Recommended Reading

1. The Effect of the FIFA 11 + with Added Neck Exercises on Maximal Isometric Neck Strength and Peak Head Impact Magnitude During Heading: A Pilot Study
2. Injury Reduction Programs for Reducing the Incidence of Sport-Related Head and Neck Injuries Including Concussion: A Systematic Review
3. Purposeful Heading in Youth Soccer: Time to Use Our Heads
4. Higher neck strength is associated with lower head acceleration during purposeful heading in soccer: A systematic review
5. The effect of ball characteristics on head acceleration during purposeful heading in male and female
6. Heading incidence in boys’ football over three seasons
7. The incidence and characteristics of purposeful heading in male and female youth football (soccer) within Australia
8. Neck strength and concussion prevalence in football and rugby athletes 

To learn more, follow Kerry at:

Website:          Kerry Peek

Twitter:            @peek_kerry

ResearchGate: Kerry Peek

Subscribe to Healthy, Wealthy & Smart:

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Apple Podcasts:          https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/healthy-wealthy-smart/id532717264

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Read The Full Transcript Here: 

Hey, Carrie, welcome to the podcast. I'm so happy to have you on.

00:06

Thank you so much for inviting me.

00:09

And just so people get our connection, I was in Monaco for the IOC conference, and I went to one of the platform presentations, and you were discussing your research, and I found it to be fascinating. So you do a lot of work with the neck and head and I just absolutely loved it. I loved your presentation. I learned so much about it. And then as I dug deeper into you, I realized that you and my friend Evangelos Pappas, there was a connection there. So I texted Evangelos. And I said, you know, Carrie peak? He said, Yeah, I'm like, Oh, cool. Could you like, tell her that? You know, I really liked her presentation, because I was like, and, and I'm, I'm sitting right behind her. I don't know if he texted you that you're like that. It was like a psycho or something. I'm like, I'm sitting behind her.

01:01

He did text me that and it was just really funny to have this funny conversation between Australia and we're in Monaco, and you're American. And yeah, saying, oh, Karen sitting behind you make sure that you introduce yourself. Yeah. After the presentations are finished.

01:15

Yeah, that was funny. But I loved your presentation. So now I can't wait to talk about your research on this episode. So I'll just kind of throw it over to you to talk about kind of the body of your research and why you chose the topic that you did.

01:30

Yes, I am. I'm a physiotherapist. And now a sports injury researcher and I started in the early 2000s, working with Don gatherer, who is the former England rugby physio, and was the Chief Medical Officer The is the Chief Medical Officer. Sorry, I'll start that again. So yeah, so I started as a physiotherapist, I graduated in the late 90s. I graduated in the UK and I worked with Don Gajraj, who was a real mentor to me, and he was the former England rugby physio and also went to two Olympic Games. And he'd really developed a practice which specialized in neck rehabilitation. And this was an area that I don't really remember studying an awful lot at university, like we did manual therapy. And really, as soon as you got patients pain free, they were free to go like I don't remember really doing a lot of neck exercises. And so we had lots of players that played rugby, we had OpSite athletes, and we had Formula One drivers coming into the clinic, who had had a history of head or neck injuries. So concussion, which wasn't really talked about much in the 90s. But looking back, a lot of them work and cast. And we started doing a lot of rehabilitation, and I really am an exercise based physiotherapist. I really like doing manual therapy. And so it was just fascinating to to really come from that perspective to see, okay, what's the mechanism of injury? And how can we replicate this, you know, doing various exercises are really sports specific. I then moved to Australia and had children and got distracted bit by doing other things for a few years. And it wasn't until my son as an eight year old was heading a football, that I thought, actually, we should probably be looking at neck exercises in this cohort, considering they're using their head to you know, deliberately redirect the ball. And that really sort of got me down this, I suppose research rabbit hole, because at that time I was doing my PhD. And since then I've moved to the University of Sydney. And so really what my research is focused on now is how we can mitigate sports related head and neck injuries.

03:39

And so of course, you know, my next question is, what is the rationale for why training the muscles around the neck can play a role in reducing sports related head and neck injuries? Because, boy, it seems like some low hanging fruit right doesn't cost a lot of money, easy to implement. So what's the rationale there?

04:02

So I mean, first of all, I want to say that I don't think that next month is going to solve every head and neck injury. You know, I think it's part of a multifactorial approach where we will look at more changes and look at, you know, whether that's body checking or collision. But it when we're talking specifically about neck exercises, I mean, the notion that greater neck strength can reduce head acceleration, particularly during heading or during collision sports is that stronger, stiffer, next, increase the coupling of the head to the body, and then help to stabilize the head on contact. So whether that's body contact or head contact, and so really, we're looking at the stiffness, which is the ability to resist defamation, and then the strength which is then you know, being able to increase neck stiffness. And so it is really that coupling between the head, neck and torso.

04:54

And how do you explain this to a patient that you're giving these exercises As to increase neck stiffness, because I know a lot of people might think well wait a second, I don't want my neck to be stiff. So how do you can? And I love that you define that? Would you mind repeating it? Because I think it's really important. And how do you explain that to a patient.

05:14

So I tend to explain to my patient by using sort of the picture of a bubble head, so I do call them bobble heads. So you've got this figure, and then this head that moves really freely. And you think if you, if you nudge the, the head, it wobbles, you know, quite a lot. And so that's a lot of head acceleration, even if you touch the body, the head will also move. And so if you think if you are being tackled in sport, or you're heading the ball, then there's a lot of head acceleration there. And we use sort of head acceleration, we measure it, you know, with inertial measurement units, thinking that you know, this, if the head is moving a lot, the brain is moving a lot. And so if you can reduce the amount of head acceleration by increasing the strength and the stiffness between that bubble head and that fixed body, then that's a way to hopefully reduce some of the movement of the brain within the skull.

06:08

And that makes a lot of sense. And I think that is a great way to say that your patient, because they'll better understand what you mean by neck stiffness. Because I can just see, like, eyes getting wide, like, I don't want a stiff neck. But you're like, Well, when I wait a second, that's not what we're saying, We want you to be able to the neck is still mobile, but we want you to be able to accept those forces when they're placed upon you. Right?

06:35

Exactly right. And, you know, we know that head injuries and things are getting more prevalent in, in sport, and whether that's because of increased reporting, or whether it's just because the athletes are getting fitter, faster, stronger. And so some of the hits that you see in American football, and in rugby league and rugby union, I mean, they're horrendous. And, you know, if you've got this head that is really not well connected to the body, and you're being hit by a, you know, 100 kilo athlete, then that's such a vulnerable component. And I think that the neck, really working in this space, it's the last area of the body that we routinely exercise, you know, you would never send an athlete out, whether they're that's a prevention or whether they're post injury, without doing the exercises, you know, you wouldn't have an ACL and say, right, there's no pain there, off you go. And yet we do it quite regularly with the neck.

07:29

Yes, very much. So. And now when we're talking about strengthening the neck, how do you measure this, the strength of the neck.

07:40

So there are lots of ways that you can measure the strength of the neck. And a lot of these different methods have been shown to have good reliability. My issue is whether they're valid, and they're valid within particular sports cohorts. So when you're looking at assessing neck strength, I mean, generally, when you're looking at any assessment of muscle strength, there's reasons why you do this, you might be using it as an outcome measure. But generally, you're doing it to inform the load that you will input you you will apply when you're then exercising. So when you measure neck strength, it has to have some carryover to the position that the athlete is going to be in for their sport. And it also has to have some carryover to what you're trying to resist. So in with the neck, for example, you're trying to resist lots of head accelerations. So generally, you need to assess the neck using isometric or maximal isometric contractions, because you want to resist movements. Most sports are upright, you know, they're running, jumping, walking, running, and, and so you need to be upright when you test them. If that's how you're also going to exercise them. Now there may be differences. So if you're a rugby forward, you're going to be in a scrum position. So there may be reasons why you want to replicate a scrum position to test an athlete. But some measurements of neck strength are done in a supine and prone position. And these can often give you very different neck strength profiles, to when you actually assess somebody's upright. And there's problems if you are assessing someone in supine or prone, but you want to exercise them upright, because because you just don't know what the actual maximal strength score is in that sport specific position. So the way that I mentioned extreme is that I get them fixed in a seated position because I can standardize that position much better. And I use a break technique. So this is really looking at eccentric loading in an isometric position until you can break the contraction, I guess, of the neck. And this is shown in lots of different areas of the body that a brake technique will yield much higher scores than a mate technique. And so again, if you're using the brake technique, particularly because you're generally trying to keep the head and neck still when there's contact placed on the head or body, and then that is sort of like an eccentric load. So this will give us our maximal score, for which Has the flexes extensors left or right side flexes. And then this gives us a much better maximal result that we can use for percentage of one rep max when we're thinking about load.

10:14

And are you using a handheld? dynamometer? for that?

10:18

Yes, I probably should have said that first. Yeah, but I am using a handheld dynamometer with a load cell in series that's placed on the head with a with a head harness. And so yes, you do incrementally load that.

10:31

Yeah. Nice. And now, how, how do we know what normal is? Like? What's a normal strength profile for NEC? And and then how do we know what's normal for a position within a sport?

10:43

And that's a great question. Because when you when you look at the literature that's out there, the first thing I always do is I look at what was the method to assess neck strength. And if it is in a lying position, then I take the results slightly with a pinch of salt, because they too tend to give you a different neck strength profile. So there are a lot of studies particularly in rugby that have been tested using the same method that I that I use. And this was first developed by by Don gatherer. So it's not any great surprise that I use that because we used in clinic for a very long time and tested hundreds of athletes. But now having moved into that research base and had a look at all the different ways that you can test neck strap, it's still my preferred method. And so we've tested rugby athletes, we've tested football players. And what we're generally finding, and this is sort of consistent with the literature. And what we expect a neck strength profile to look like is that the extensors should be the strongest. So if you look at a result, and the extensors are not the strongest, is it related to the testing technique or the position that they're tested in? Or is there a problem there, so it isn't an injured population, that might give you something that's a bit different. So extensors should be strongest flexors are generally the weakest. And side flexors will sit somewhere in the middle there, depending on the population. So in rugby and American football, you often do want to have the side flexes to be stronger, and a lot stronger than the flexes. So they tend to have a very wide sort of neck radar if you were to plot this on a graph. Whereas if you have football players, for example, because of the conditioning from hitting a ball, they may actually have quite strong flexes. So I always have a look and plot the results on a radar. And then I also calculate the flexure to extensor ratio to see what that looks like. And so in the literature, normal is often considered around point six of a flexor extensor ratio, but I have seen it as low as point five as high as point seven. But I always think if in a sporting population, if it's below point six to me, that's that's honestly a red flag, but it's certainly a yellow flag.

12:47

It's problematic, or can lead to can lead to more problems. Yes. And where can people if they're wondering like, hey, where can they find the method that you use to strengthen? Is there a paper? Is there something you can point to because we can sort of put it in the show notes?

13:04

Yeah, so I do detail the the method for assessing neck strength and a paper that we published earlier this year in sports medicine. So we looked at the neck strength of football players, adolescent football players from 12 to 17. And then we implemented an X strengthening exercise program and to see whether by strengthening the neck this actually had an impact on reducing head acceleration during heading, and we found that it did so that the neck strengthening method is is detailed in that paper.

13:34

Perfect. So we'll have that paper, we'll put it in the show notes a link to it so that people can read it at their leisure. Now, we talked about why you're looking at it, how you're evaluating it, what does a training program look like?

13:50

So that's, that's really interesting as well, because I think, because there's not a lot of published literature on neck strengthening, I think you tend to find that you have different camps of people, some that are very pro neck strengthening, and that that certainly is myself. And, you know, a bit like you were saying earlier is that it's low hanging fruit, you know, why wouldn't we try and strengthen it because the potential gain is huge, and it wouldn't not strengthen any other area of the body. So I kind of think what, you know, why wouldn't you do it? But on the back of that, we also have to think what's the best way to strengthen the neck and I think some people are quite negative towards neck strengthening, because some of the papers that have been published, the exercises that they use are sort of self resisted exercises where they're pushing against their forehead and holding that and doing isometric holds. And a number of studies have shown that this doesn't really have an impact, it may not even impact in which increasing strength and it may not have an impact in reducing injury risk as well. And that makes sense. You know, I don't implement those exercises because When you're talking about reducing something like concussion or heading in football, those hits happen in fractions of seconds. So we don't need to have high insurance of the neck or just isometric control over a long hold, what we need to be able to do is fire those muscles really, really quickly. And so we've been playing with some neuromuscular exercises. So it isn't our paper that was published in sports medicine, but I'll try and describe it, but you're kind of in a setup position, but you're rolling backwards and forwards, and you're trying to stop your head from hitting the ground. And so the idea from that is really to try and contract the neck flexors really quickly if the heads in neutral, and then we turn the head to the side and the other side, and we do the same exercises. But the idea is that you've got that anti gravity strengthening, but you've also got, you know, you're trying to stress the muscles to fire really quickly. And that's what they have to do. So most of the the literature that is talking about neck strengthening is sort of indicating that we need to do some sort of isometric exercise, but with ballistic intent, and that's the bit that is often missing, for most of the neck exercises in the literature.

16:10

Yeah, and that's the exercise you described in Monaco, sort of, for people, if you've ever taken Pilates, it's rolling, kind of like rolling like a ball is kind of what that's kind of, you know, that's, that's at least what I got from it. And I remember I got back to my room, and I was like, we're gonna try and see what happens here. And it is it not as easy as it sounds.

16:32

No, and, and it does, it does work the net quite hard. And you can see it, you can see the net contractions in somebody else that's doing it. But the way that we sort of played with this exercise, and I will just credit to bursting, but also, we meet on a regular basis. And we talk about neck exercises. And he's also widely published in the neck strengthening arena, and was part of this paper as well. But what we were trying to do was come up with an exercise that use no equipment that didn't take long. So these exercises take 90 seconds. And that could be added to an existing neuromuscular program. So in this case, we added it to the part two of the FIFA 11 plus. And this is really important because I actually don't think isolated neck exercises is probably going to give you the best bang for buck either. I think we need to integrate it into, you know, other strength and conditioning programs. And again, this is sometimes where you see in the literature that they're just adding neck neck exercises without thinking about, or what is that neuromuscular control to the trunk as well. And how are we stimulating that?

17:31

Yeah, that makes so much sense to not just do things in isolation. I mean, gosh, especially when you're talking about athletes who rare? There's not many athletes that do things in isolation?

17:45

No, no. And and I think that that's just really important to get that adherence as well. Because if they think it's an add on program, and it's going to take ages and 10 minutes to an athlete is actually quite a long time when they're doing so many other areas of the body, that if we could integrate it into existing programs, or integrating into multi joint movements, then it makes sense to them. And it and it's, it's it's integrated. It's not an add on.

18:09

Right? Because of course, as we all know, as physio therapist, one of the hardest things through a rehab process is the patient that doing the rehab. Right, so the best exercise is the one they're going to do. So if you explain it well. And you integrate it, you're more likely to have that patient do the exercise. Have you found that? Have you found difficulty patients adhering to the program?

18:38

So, so we didn't, we did, we did look at the evaluation of feasibility. So my PhD is actually on adherence to exercise. So it was something that was really at the forefront of my mind when setting any exercise intervention, that we need to have some sort of process to evaluate it and see whether the, you know, the players and the coaches found it feasible, and did it take too long could they see the benefits of it, and it's generally scored really, really highly. And I think that is the fact that we tried to just minimize the time that it took that it was complex. So you know, the youngest athletes were sort of 12 years of age, and you know, they all understood what they needed to do, but also to make it you know, applicable to their sport. I think that's really important.

19:21

And what are your thoughts on different kinds of strengthening you know, we see things on YouTube people will see things on YouTube and I don't mean to go down a rabbit hole on that, but you know, tying weights around their head bands around their head doing things with bands and weights with movement of the neck. What are your thoughts on that?

19:44

So there's certainly some crazy stuff on on YouTube or Tik Tok and I think that's not necessarily specific to the neck. I just think that again, what you've got to try and do and, you know, I think exercise therapists, whether that's physios or exercise physiologist that do exercise really well, they understand the sport and they understand the mechanism of injury. And so if you're going to add a weight to your neck, you've got to think, Okay, well, how am I adding the weight? And how is it replicating, you know, the risk of injury, or what I need to do within my sport. And so if you're in a crouch position, which I've seen in lots of videos, where they've got a head harness, touch the neck, and then there's really, really heavy weight at the end. And I kind of think, why you're doing that, what's that for? And maybe in the scram, maybe that's applicable, but you know, I can think of very few reasons why you would need to do that. And when they hang weights off the top of their heads, you know, you think of that, you know, that axial loading that they're doing. Again, why would you want to do that?

20:51

Yeah, I don't know. That's why I asked, and so we got an answer. I don't know, I really do not know why you'd want to do that. But now now listening to you talk about your research, it just makes so much more sense to integrate it in a neuromuscular based exercise, you know, integrating it with other muscles within the body and making sure that it makes sense for the position and the sport of the person. Yeah, absolutely.

21:21

And I think this is about knowing, knowing your patients, knowing your athletes, and, and if you apply that sort of methodology for any exercise, you know, whenever you see someone, so I've been invited to do some work with the RW F here, so the Air Force, and I don't know a lot about PILOTs, but you just go in here, talk to the pilots, and you say, okay, so what do you do? And you know, when does your neck hurt? And? And how long are you in that sustained position? And how much G force are you being exposed to when you're in a fighter jet? And you just kind of start to understand, you know, what, what's happening to this person? And how is that potentially, you know, making them at risk of injury? And then how do we need to train those muscles in a way that stimulates, you know, what they're exposed to as part of their job or part of their sport? I mean, you do that with every other joint of the body? You know, I think we routinely do that. But we just need to do it at the neck as well.

22:19

Yeah, and great advice. And now is there anything as you know, throughout our conversation today that we didn't touch upon, about your research, maybe about your PhD work that you think would be audience would really love to hear more about?

22:37

Um, I think that it's important. I think it's important than I think I sort of said this a bit earlier on that, we really need to make sure that the research in this space is really high quality research, and that we understand, you know, the mechanism of injury, particularly things like concussion, that we don't think that neck strength is going to solve everything. But you know, when we're reading papers, it's understanding, you know, what method did they use, you know, are the results actually believable, or didn't the way that they measured neck strength have given you such an unusual profile that actually shouldn't read any further in the paper, or it's just not applicable to your athletes, for example. And so I think that we need to be much more critical in the way that we apply research in neck strengthening. And I think that, although I'm very passionate about next trend thing as an intervention, you know, I don't think we should overplay what we can potentially do in this space, either. It's just part of our toolbox, but it's not going to be everything.

23:38

Yeah, there. It's not the panacea for all ills having to do with head and neck injuries.

23:44

That's right. And I think that if you don't understand about how to integrate a neck strengthening program, I mean, I'm very happy for people to reach out to me, but, you know, talk to people and, you know, as I say, critically appraise what's going on. And I think, you know, if you're really good at designing exercise programs, get creative, you know, have a little bit of a play of what you're trying to do. And I think that's often how we get really innovative in the way that we approach exercise programming as well.

24:11

Yeah, and it also sounds to me like there's not a one size fits all. Approach, exercise or program. No,

24:21

I mean, I think there's things you don't do. And then everything else is kind of open to Yeah, depending on your athlete. So yeah, don't hang away off your head.

24:29

Yes, that is fabulous advice. And now as we start to wrap things up, I'm going to ask you the question that I asked everyone, and that's knowing where you are now in your life and career. What advice would you give to yourself as a new grad right out of physio school, your younger self?

24:50

I think that's a great question. And I don't regret anything that I've done in my career, but I would say that I've probably come to really specializing in neck strength is a bit too late. So we started in the early 2000s. So my first paper was published in 2005. And as I say, I got distracted doing other things. And I wish I'd continued with it. And I didn't partly because I was having children, and I'd moved to Australia and just life got in the way. And when I came back to it in the probably about 2015 16. So 10 years later, and nothing had moved forward, really. And I just thought that was a really missed opportunity. And so I if I could go back in time, I would probably, yeah, I would probably want to squash those 10 years into maybe 18 months.

25:40

Well, that would be pretty amazing time traveling. So where can people find you? If they have questions, they want to follow you on social media, where can they go.

25:51

So the best place to find me is on Twitter. So I'm at peak underscore Carey, I don't tweet about anything other than my research. So that's the best place to find me. And then you can always drop me a message through there. Otherwise, you can probably find me via Google, at my email address at the University of Sydney.

26:09

Perfect. And just so everyone knows, we will have a link to the papers that we've mentioned today. So if you want to read up on those that don't worry, they will be in the show notes at podcast at healthy, wealthy, smart, calm. And Carrie, I want to thank you for coming on. Like I said, I really loved your presentation in Monaco, which was just a short snippet of kind of the amount of things that we talked about in the podcast today. So thank you so much for taking the time out and coming on.

26:36

No, thank you actually went to your presentation in Monaco as well. And you've informed a lot of what I do as well about, you know, I think that most research is quite ego driven. And I'm not an exception to that. And we think that if we publish a paper that somebody is going to read it and we're going to change the world. And that rarely happens because players and coaches don't read research. And so your presentation was about you know, engaging with the media and doing a lot more in the social media space. And that really hit home to me that we have to try and bridge that gap if we can to translate research to practice. So no, thank you.

27:10

Oh, well, that's nice. I'm glad to hear that I will pass that along to my partner Osman, as well. So thank you for that. And again, thank you for coming on. I really appreciate it. And all of you listening. Thanks so much for tuning in. Have a great couple of days and stay healthy, wealthy and smart.

Today, Dr. Phil talks about the pros and cons of value based purchasing, and prioritising results over productivity. How will value based purchasing in home health turn out?

Hear about OASIS assessments, the difficulties of working with insurances, and get Dr. Phil’s valuable advice, all on today’s episode of The Healthy, Wealthy & Smart Podcast.

Key Takeaways

• “It looks like value based purchasing in home health is going to be a good thing.”
• “Home health therapists are probably, unfortunately, some of the worst offenders at underdosing strength training.”
• “Professional communication is where the good are going to be separated from the bad.”
• “Most of the private insurances base their policies on payment on what Medicare does.”
• “You’ve got to be involved with advocacy if you want to see change.”

More about Dr. Philip Goldsmith

Philip Goldsmith, PT, MSPT, EMT, DScPT, COS-C, is the owner and founder of Goldsmith Therapy Solutions, a provider of high-quality management, consulting, and clinical solutions for home health providers.

Dr. Goldsmith has been a practicing physical therapist for more than twenty years, with experience in home health, skilled nursing, and outpatient orthopedic environments.

Dr. Goldsmith received his BS in Health Studies from Boston University in 1996, his MSPT from Boston University in 1998, and his DScPT from University of Maryland School of Medicine in 2011. Additionally, Dr. Goldsmith has extensive experience in leadership and financial management of small and mid-sized not-for-profit corporations and has won more than $200,000 in grants for public safety organizations with which he is affiliated.

Dr. Goldsmith lives in Hanover, PA, with his wife and son.

Suggested Keywords

Healthy, Wealthy, Smart, Healthcare, Physiotherapy, Results, APTA, Home Health, Value Based Purchasing, Insurances, Advocacy,

To learn more, follow Dr. Phil at:

Email:              pgoldpt@gmail.com

LinkedIn:         https://www.linkedin.com/in/philip-goldsmith-a81a692

Twitter:            @pgoldpt

APTA Home Health: https://www.homehealthsection.org/leadership

Subscribe to Healthy, Wealthy & Smart:

Website:                      https://podcast.healthywealthysmart.com

Apple Podcasts:          https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/healthy-wealthy-smart/id532717264

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SoundCloud:               https://soundcloud.com/healthywealthysmart

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Read the Full Transcript Here: 

Alright, let's go. Hello, healthy, wealthy and smart. I am Jenna canter here with the Dr. Philip Goldsmith, who we're going to refer to as Dr. Phil, don't you love it? I'm so grateful to have Phil here, because he has a small business owner who runs a business in which he provides Oh, I'm gonna mess this up. And I'm so excited to where he brings stuff to the home health people and they're happy and they smile and say thank you. Without it and I get it.

04:05

That's pretty close.

04:08

Would you mind summarizing in that perfect sentence you just said a second ago of what it is you're more details on your business, like

04:14

elevator speech. It's called Goldsmith Therapy Solutions. And I provide high quality clinical consulting and management services to the home health industry.

04:26

I love it. And that's an elevator speech we all need to have you know for each of our own individual businesses, anybody who interviews with me knows I don't spend too much time going into the bio stuff because that will just be in the people can read it and then Wounaan go oh my gosh, I love Dr. Phil, you know, look at this. Wow, incredible. We are going to dive right into the topic which I know nothing about. I'm a cash pay cash based out of network PT working with performers. So I'm going to ask all the base questions to fully understanding the situation so everyone can better get on the on the same page with this apparently, and I I'm, I'm not saying it's not but just for me, it's new, apparently topic that's like a hot topic, and that is value based purchasing in home health. I know nothing about it. So let's talk about what is that? What is the value? What is that

05:21

value based purchasing is Medicare's new payment model for certified home health services provided to Medicare party beneficiaries.

05:33

Why is that important right now,

05:36

because it's different, how Medicare is moving away from the you go do a visit or provide a service and we pay you for a service to a model where they pay you based more on your outcomes, and how good a job you do at taking care of those Medicare beneficiaries that have chosen to avail themselves of your services.

06:05

That sounds great to me from a physical therapy standpoint, because that's what we care about. So how was this? Let's start with how this is good. And then we can go how this is potentially something that could get in the way of providing care to people fully. So how is this good?

06:20

This is good, because it removes a lot of the artificial drivers that were skewing utilization. Meaning, excuse me until about three years ago. The more visits you the more therapy visits you made, the more money you got. And that was unfortunately driving practice patterns and everybody Medicare, not Medicare kind of agreed. This isn't working. Yeah, yeah. And

06:55

because that's about productivity, not about results. Yeah.

06:59

Right. And it was it was too much widget counting, and a lot of home health agencies were making a lot of money on providing therapy visits that weren't necessarily necessary. Hmm, Mm hmm. So, you know, the the interim step on the way was this thing called pdgm that we're in now where it's all based on functional states and diagnoses? And that's about it.

07:28

Yeah, it's not nothing to push getting them to where we need to get them or to protect them from getting worse. If we're talking about home health. Yes, yes. Okay. Okay. So then let's talk about where this could potentially be problematic.

07:45

So the, the concern is, are you comparing apples to apples, meaning they're dividing the agencies up by state by geography and buy large versus small volume, to try to make apples to apples. But the big issue is, this system works literally by robbing Peter to pay Paul, somebody is going to make money. And somebody is going to lose money. So the other people at the other end of the scale can make money.

08:25

Where could you go and give some details on this? Because I'm not really following on on how this could be? Yeah,

08:31

Medicare is gonna say, Okay, we're gonna take all of the large volume agencies in the state of Pennsylvania. And we're gonna line them up by the outcomes we've chosen, they haven't told us the outcomes yet.

08:46

Deciding what the outcome what outcomes matter,

08:49

they are in the process of that now, who are the consulting

08:52

with doctors?

08:57

So there is what's called a technical expert panel, and we could do that alone. The concept of technical expert panels could be its own podcast, where basically they bring in people in the industry and ask them, What do you think is important? Um, do they pay them? They cover their expenses, do they? Do

09:25

they start to get a financial interest to sway certain ways and their responses? Okay, okay.

09:32

They're representing their industries. So, you know, they can, I could volunteer to be on a technical expert panel. And my job is to bring the perspective of the physical therapy industry. Hmm. They also do us, you know, these big beltway consulting firms that you hear so much about, and they have policy wonks that work at CMS that do this stuff. A lot of its actuaries accountants and lawyers? Because one of the big rules is this is supposed to be budget neutral, meaning the pot of money doesn't change. It's who gets how much of that pot changes, specifically, the agencies that are the bottom performers, they're going to lose it as much as 5% of their reimbursement, so that the top performing agencies gain 5%. See,

10:25

there we go. That's where I think a financial interest could sway what people say, because this could be less money towards their industry. Well, it's problematic,

10:37

home health in general. I mean, this is, it's already, you know, you're already getting paid a lump sum for the care of each individual. And that varies based on those clinical and diagnostic factors that that I talked about before. Right. The scuttlebutt is,

10:55

I don't, but I just need to highlight that. I know I love that you said scandal, but this is great. That means rumors, love it scuttlebutt, I'm going to start using that every day.

11:06

One of the big outcomes they're going to look at is readmission to the hospital, did you keep your patient out of the hospital? Because that costs Medicare more money. And they're gonna look at functional outcomes, like transfers and ambulation. And there may even be a patient satisfaction component because did you know that Medicare mandates patient satisfaction surveys in most settings, you get those annoying Press Ganey surveys? Because Medicare says Thou shalt, and they track those, and those are actually publicly reported data.

11:41

That's actually great. I think the patient what their happiness is everything. Yeah, I think that's great. That's, yeah. Okay. Okay.

11:52

So it's your secrets here.

11:54

So it's it sounds though, like it's a bit of a gamble on where things are going to lie. And what's going to be decided on what these outcome measures are? That sounds like the biggest concern, what are these outcome measures that we're going to be using? Because if we're talking about movement stuff, you

12:15

aren't talking about movement stuff. But, you know, they've already established that all of the measures, the outcomes that are going to be looked at are either Oasis based Oasis being the clinical assessment that's done in homecare at a minimum every 60 days. Okay, Mission recertification discharge, hospitalization, return from hospitalization. That standardized assessment gets done. I have

12:47

a question about that, actually. And this is just from my own experience, it's a completely different audience that I work with. So when I'm working with my performers, I'm reassessing every single time I work with them. I'm a niche practice, though. I'm, I'm small and keeping it small. And so therefore, they get like real top, you know, I know them inside out what's going on in their lives and stuff, so I can best help them. So that is very, very specific. And and I'm lucky to be in that position. So when you're saying 90 days, that sounds like a long time for like a formal reassessment. I believe in oh, gosh, PT, school, it was it was a matter of like two months. So is it because of the the age where things may take longer to see results? Why it's a 90 day spot? Like, why is that? I'm honestly asking, it's not for judgment, I'm trying to be very transparent on my own bias. So I can learn

13:37

that every 60 days, well, every 60 days, that OASIS assessment gets done. However, that doesn't change, that your state Practice Act still applies that you may have to reassess every 30 days or every 10 visits or every 14 days, whatever your state Practice Act says, and Medicare still has the every 10th Visit reassessment requirement in home health, where they expect you to be using objective functional measures, and looking at your plan of care and your goals and saying, Are we getting where we need to be,

14:16

which is what we do in physical therapy. That is we're always asking ourselves that question.

14:19

Okay. This is more of a you know, it's more of a big picture thing. Yeah. Okay. For example, the emulation question. There's independent, there's independent but needs a one handed device independent but uses a two handed device can walk but need supervision at all times. And then there's a couple of answers for wheelchair bound, or bed bound.

14:46

Yeah, I'm not familiar with this, but I'm learning as you're talking about, is there anything about risk of falls because that's like the big a big one.

14:53

They look at that from a process measure standpoint, meaning they ask you, did you assess for fall risk, and there's criteria given a multifactorial objective. So really, it's got to be a two pronged thing. They're not looking at the results. They're looking at. Did you do it? Yeah.

15:17

Yeah. Is there room for? And this may be you don't know, because this is a bit of mind reading. As far as you know, right now, is there room for measurements for neurological disorders where we know that things may they're going to decline over time? You know, are immune immune? Am I saying the wrong thing? I think he's doing the wrong thing. But is there room for that where they have a health situation where things are going to decline? We know that but we're trying to keep them functioning their best as they're going through their process?

15:50

The answer is yes and no. Okay, the questions and answers don't change. What changes is, they can tease out by diagnostic grouping and by what they call risk adjustment, where if your agency has a high population of clients with progressive neurologic disorders, that's the the term in favor now. Okay, thank you, they're going to risk adjust your statistics to reflect that, meaning, we see that you have a larger population of people who probably aren't going to get better. And we're going to do some statistical mumbo jumbo in the background to adjust for that. But that doesn't change the answers that the clinician is using. Okay. There's no, I have to pull a different document because I have a different diagnostic group. There's no, I answer these questions for this diagnosis. And that questions for that diagnosis? Yeah. Yeah, the people who very much a big picture of

17:03

the people behind the scenes, I think I know the answer this question, but I'm still going to ask it, the people behind the scenes who will be assessing the the progress progress, and, you know, if it's fitting, looking at the outcome measures and what we need for that patients, are they medical professionals? Are these just people who are trained to work for this company? Who are the Who are these people?

17:28

So field clinicians who work with clients answer the oasis for each client, the agency, then submits it electronically to CMS. And the risk adjustment is baked in to the computers at CMS that process all this information.

17:50

Also, it's a computer thing. It's all very,

17:53

and that's part of the reason the assessment is somewhat limited in big picture. Yes, it's a it's a computer thing. Ah, it's a i. i, maybe maybe not. But it's a lot of higher level statistics. That's way above my head.

18:11

Right, right. Yeah. Oh, wow. That's what this is so negative for me to say, but what an easy way as a person in CMS to point away and go, Oh, no, it's the system's. That's what they computed. Like, I can't. I'm like, Who created it? Who designed the code? Fine. We'll look at the code person I need to understand. Okay. Okay. So, I mean, it just sounds a little bit like a trip to Las Vegas, where you studied a little bit. So you know, a bit about gambling, you say, let's say you're very educated about that, and you but it's still gambling? You don't really know. I don't know, I just I,

18:53

you know, it's, it's pretty well known how they do the risk adjustment. You know, it's just the statistics of how it's done is pretty high level, but we have a good feel for what they're risk adjusting for and what questions they used to do the risk adjusting.

19:15

I mean, do you think the physical and physical therapy industry home health for this, because that's what we're focusing on? Do you think what the way we have things set up now, the way I mean, that's the whole point is to be measuring their outcomes? That is literally what we're doing all the time. Do you think we're pretty safe with this adjustment? If anything, it'll probably be for the better if you're just overall? I mean, because we did the good versus the bad. Where do you think it's, it's gonna turn out for us?

19:46

It looks like value based purchasing a home health is going to be a good thing. It is going to reward you for doing your job well, and being aware of your outcomes and delivering good health. Quality physical therapy that drives the outcomes? Yeah, there's going to be, it's going to challenge the physical therapist and the PTA to work at the top of their license and to collaborate with the other professionals. Because some of these measures don't happen in a vacuum for lack of a better term, they don't happen unless you're working as a team, and everybody's on the same page. Yeah. And that's really that interprofessional communication is where the good are gonna be separated from the bad.

20:40

Yeah. This isn't my world. Oh, continue,

20:44

there's, you know, definitely the agency is going to have to be very aware of their outcomes and their data. And the understanding of that data is going to be huge. Yeah. And I can tell you, that there are consulting firms and companies, and that can look at those outcomes at a clinician level. And they're going to tease out high performing clinicians and low performing clinicians.

21:16

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I'm assuming that's where the concern is, what is, oh, I'm gonna backtrack to actually what I was originally thinking of asking. What is the hot talk on the streets regarding this? What are the big things that other physical therapists and people in the industry are going like, hey, about it? Or do we already cover those things?

21:41

We've covered a lot of it. I think there's a lot of optimism around this. Because the more recent changes over the past couple of years, starting in October 2019 really pulled back on the number of visits. We were seeing clients. And some of that is real. And some of that is artificial. Yeah. And it's gotten me up on my soapbox a number of times, because home health therapists are probably, unfortunately, some of the worst offenders at underdosing strength training. Oh, yeah, you want to get me started? Don't get me started.

22:34

Yeah, yeah. So it's, it would force that that push, I would love. It

22:39

forces us to understand how to deliver strength training, how to deliver the most the best outcomes we can in in fewer treatments.

22:52

Yeah, how to get trust, motivation.

22:55

really gotta understand you've got to be a high performing clinician, yeah. To survive in this market. Yeah, because a home health agency literally cannot afford to have lower performing clinicians that can't deliver the outcomes. Yeah. And a lower number of visits.

23:16

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. I definitely get that. So I I mean, I'm all about the outcomes. I've had people a different dance physical therapists asked me about how I do my outcomes and it really does depend on my patient and everything but I have a very I have a special circumstance you know, like I'm very lucky to have this niche that I have. i There are from an outpatient not out push out. Yeah. Out not outpatient. Wait, I'm getting so confused. Ortho. From an ortho standpoint, I'm calling because I'm not, I'm not home health. So I'm just like trying to get back to my my world. There are definitely I'm gonna choose my words specifically. So if you are a person who does own a clinic, that sees a lot of patience, you are a mill, there is no way to paint that there is a reason why there is a name for that. That's like saying, I, you know, I was you know, born from two Jewish parents and I grew up I have my Bar Mitzvah and then and like, I still observe Passover, and then be saying, I don't I'm not Jewish. Like what? Like, no, I'm Jewish, you know. It's very weird comparison. But whatever. That's what I chose. And I'll go with it. We

24:41

get to the point of mills.

24:44

I've always thought that the it was because of the problem with insurance and reimbursement and it's one of those like chicken or the egg kind of thing. What happened first, which I use in defense for any clinic. I'm like, hey, they're trying to figure out how to get reimbursed but at the same time, does in this horrible circle of terrible reimbursement trying to communicate what you did and everything, and people are trying to make money, which is fine, it's okay to want to make money Hello. Is

25:15

we as a profession do wrong to allow an industry to devalue our services like that?

25:24

It's because when trying to guess this is me, because I'm not a network. So, but from what I've seen, it's it's clinics trying, they're doing their best to report what they're doing. They outcomes with the patients, while at the same time speaking the language that the insurances say, they will reimburse. And then also these insurances saying they're going to reimburse, but they're not actually reimbursing, then there are administrative staff calling over and over again, fighting to get those reimbursements, you know, getting better at that. So that's why you have certain people working on the at the front desk, and then and so then they increase the number of patients during that time, because while they're gambling per patient on honestly, this is how I look at it for a patient on getting that reimbursement. Through, you know, the paperwork we've we've been trained to do to report outcome measures and everything. They're not they're not getting paid for it. They're fighting to get paid even on the basic level. So I think, but I don't know what happened first if insurance happened first, or, and, or the, you know, provision of the services, and they decided for it to be a lot of people that's the chicken or the egg thing. I mean, I'm sure somebody could look up the history, but I think that's where people just say, Oh, the healthcare system is messed up needs to be fixed. I, that's where I kind of lean back on to kind of be fair to everyone. Not that there has to be a middle ground. But I mean, that is kind of the truth. If I owned a big business, you're constantly you're like, Okay, I've hired this, these EMR systems, you know, we're we're gonna track and write down things. I hope this is the right system. Okay, this one's not working. Let's do a new one. And then you have your clinicians going, Ah, dang it, we have a new one, I have to readjust. But it's because we're trying to do it. Honestly, we're trying to do it legally. And then insurances just go, now, we're just not gonna reimburse you, we're not gonna explain why. And we're gonna be difficult to get in contact with to discuss and figure things out. So I don't know it's a random tangent, I'm sure people will go be like, Jenna said something wrong. I'm not the person to attack here. I'm just speaking. If you have problems, go talk to the insurance companies and figure it out if you already know how it works. But that's kind of how I look at it being problematic in the Ortho world specifically, because there is a lot of measuring of my brain out there. There's a lot of measuring of what was the word that we use, the more patients you see.

27:56

Counting widgets, counting widgets.

27:58

It happens, it does happen at the larger clinics. But yeah, can you I mean, I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I agree with it. But also, can you blame on? You know, like,

28:12

you started this to make money. I get that, you

28:17

know, but, but I mean, what I am in the business to hear, I mean, that's what I'm doing my own thing, is it easy to do what I'm doing, is it easy to get the patient Oh, my God. But that's I that's where I put my energy where I put my energy. But I feel like what is happening in the home house, like, Oh, my God, this is hilarious, full circle, but I'm going to connect it, it's going to be amazing. Feel like the Home Health what you're doing with pushing that pushing forth. The outcomes, I would love that I would, but I would love to actually be that not than just saying that. We love their beat. Let's make it all about the outcomes. And honestly, I feel like that's what we've been trying to do the whole time. It's just people aren't. insurances aren't saying there aren't following through with it, what they say they're going to reimburse, they say, We can reimburse up to this amount. It doesn't mean anything. It's horrible. So I would love there to be fixing in that way.

29:13

And I think someday Medicare will come around to a value driven system for outpatient therapies. And until Medicare does, nobody else will mean, Medicare very much still drives that bus.

29:31

Yeah. Wow. I never realized that. That's yeah. How do you know how do you I mean, honestly, asking, How do you know that they're the ones driving the bus?

29:43

Because most of the private insurance is based their policies on payment on what Medicare does,

29:53

because they're so huge. Yes. Mm hmm. Oh, gosh. Not saying it. It's easy to say there's no easy road.

30:02

That's where all the that's the root of all the CPT codes and everything else. Medicare needed a common terminology to wash claims through a computer to pay people. Let's boil everything down to a five character code.

30:21

Right, right, right. Wow. Huh? She's What a hot mess. It just gives me a headache thinking about all of it. I don't like it. It makes I need cake. Or pizza. Oh, not chocolate though. My dad loves chocolate cake. Are you a chocolate cake person?

30:43

I am a chocolate person head on.

30:46

We only put like chocolate cake is so different from chocolate bars come on.

30:51

Yes. But they both have their merits

30:54

F No. Disagree? Absolutely not. All right, if you are a person that if you would handle your stress from chocolate cake, just as much as chocolate bars. Okay, your team Dr. Phil. If you're like No, chocolate, just chocolate actual chocolate, your team? Jenna. I'm interested to see if there's going to be any written debate on this or discussions I'm sure there already has, which is why you were meeting Dr. Phil was like, let's do this topic. And like, I don't know anything about this, which is good. I think it's good because then I get to learn everybody else who listens gets to learn. And oh, I'm going to just say this just because I am not a fan of meanness. Don't attack either of us in this discussion. If that's in your if that's in, if that's in your intention in in hearing this and your response, oh, just at this as a message just for you get out of here. Well, we got to be better together, we need to be able to have these discussions, talk about it, totally fine to speak on your concerns about it or all that stuff. But we're just attacking each other that is not helping out the patients at large. This is about the people we serve. So we're discussing this to see what's going on to better understand what's going on. If you are in an estate, you are close to somebody who is in legislature, the then do talk to them, or see if there's a pre written letter from a PTA right now regarding this through their app, if you're in a PTA member or see if you can get a hold of that letter through a friend or something or I'm sure it's honestly on their webpage for you to easily access to advocate sending a letter to fight this or fight for it, whatever it is, because there's there's positives and negatives and everything. I mean, sometimes there's you know, it's leaning one way, obviously, but we got to just take action. If you want to see something you got it don't just reply on here take action. Well, I just gave so many different messages and one thing at the end, but that's okay, I'm fine with it. Any last words you want to say on this matter that you that we haven't covered? Dr. Phil?

33:15

I think the take homes are twofold. You just said the first one. You've got to be involved in advocacy if you want to see change. Second, value based purchasing, like we're talking about it today is just in the home health arena right now. It is what Medicare wants to bring across the board across all settings. And, you know, they don't they want to get away from fee for service. They want to get away from ID to units. If they're x and a unit. If they're X, a unit of East M and A unit of manual therapy and you need to pay me for it. They want to know a client walked in your clinic with this problem. They had these issues that we're able to quantify. And at the end of it, the client left our clinic and the issues were gone and here's how we've quantified it. That's what they want to be able to pay you for. And if you can't be excellent with that. You're not going to have a successful practice 510 years from now.

34:34

Thank you. Thank you so much. Where can people they wanted to get in contact with you Where can they connect with you on either social media or email?

34:44

I am P gold PT on Twitter. I do have a personal Facebook. I am not fancy or cool enough to have Instagram or Tik Tok or any of those. I have LinkedIn. My email is Easy it's P gold pt@gmail.com. The other place that's really easy to find me is if you go to a PTA home health.org on the leadership page, you'll find my name. Currently the treasurer of APGA Home Health formerly known as the Home Health section. And in two weeks in two days I become the President

35:29

didn't say that at the beginning. I was like, I wonder if you want me to and you didn't say bring it and bring it out? So yes, this is a person. This is a person who's very involved with fighting and spin keeping on top of what's going on for home health. So thank you so much, Dr. Phil, for coming on for your name. I love just saying Dr. Phil over and over again. And just sending you the biggest hug from afar. We got a meet at a conference recently and you are a gem. Thank you so much, and everyone send love to Dr. Phil for for his time.