Healthy Wealthy & Smart

Healthy Wealthy & Smart: Where Healthcare Meets Business. The Healthy Wealthy & Smart podcast, hosted by world-renowned physical therapist Dr. Karen Litzy, offers a wealth of knowledge and expertise to help healthcare and fitness professionals take their careers to the next level. With its perfect blend of clinical skills and business acumen, this podcast is a one-stop-shop for anyone looking to gain a competitive edge in today's rapidly evolving healthcare landscape. Dr. Litzy's dynamic approach to hosting combines practical clinical insights with expert business advice, making the Healthy Wealthy & Smart podcast the go-to resource for ambitious professionals seeking to excel in their fields. Each episode features a thought-provoking conversation with a leading industry expert, offering listeners unique insights and actionable strategies to optimize their practices and boost their bottom line. Whether you're a seasoned healthcare professional looking to expand your skill set, or an up-and-coming fitness expert seeking to establish your brand, the Healthy Wealthy & Smart podcast has something for everyone. From expert advice on marketing and branding to in-depth discussions on the latest clinical research and techniques, this podcast is your essential guide to achieving success in today's competitive healthcare landscape. So if you're ready to take your career to the next level, tune in to the Healthy Wealthy & Smart podcast with Dr. Karen Litzy and discover the insights, strategies, and inspiration you need to thrive in today's fast-paced world of healthcare and fitness.
RSS Feed Subscribe in Apple Podcasts
Healthy Wealthy & Smart














All Episodes
Now displaying: July, 2022
Jul 25, 2022

In this episode, Co-Founders of Trailhead Learning Collective, Jenn Bell, PT, ScD, COMT, and Audrey Elias, PT, PhD, OCS, talk about their work doing Continuing Education different.

Today, they talk about the current state of Continuing Education, integration of information, and addressing Continuing Education courses. How is Trailhead Learning Collective different?

Hear about active learning techniques, some upcoming retreats, and get Audrey and Jenn’s advice to their younger selves, all on today’s episode of The Healthy, Wealthy & Smart Podcast.


Key Takeaways

  • “Our patients are human, but we, as clinicians, are human, and it’s important to respect that.”
  • “There is a time and place for everything.”
  • “There is an alternative way to get your continuing education done that also takes care of yourself.”
  • “Remain flexible and keep watching for those opportunities.”
  • “All of it is worth it. All those experiences are things that you can draw on.”
  • “It’s alright to go do different things that aren’t exactly on your path.”


More about Audrey Elias and Jenn Bell

Jenn Bell, PT, ScD, COMT, and Audrey Elias, PT, PhD, OCS, are co-founders of Trailhead Learning Collective.

Audrey is clinical faculty in the University of Montana School of Physical Therapy and
Rehabilitation Sciences.

She completed her DPT in 2009, did her residency with Therapeutic Associates in Washington state, and then completed her PhD in clinical  biomechanics at the University of Montana in 2015. She then did a post-doc at the University of Guelph before returning to UMPT as clinical faculty, training entry-level students and residents in the DPT program and in the UMPT clinic. Her primary area of research involves how psychological factors play into movement, particularly following knee injury. Most importantly, she loves being outside, whether skiing, running, hiking, paddle-boarding, or lounging around a campfire with her son and husband.

Jenn is the Program Director and Director of Clinical Education at UMPT.

She completed PT school in 2006, then completed her COMT in 2012 and her ScD from Texas Tech in 2013, all while treating patients in a variety of settings in rural Alaska. She has treated patients and taught in PT programs in virtually every setting all over  the world, including Kenya, Ethiopia, and Malawi, and is an internationally-recognized expert in inter-professional education and global health. She is also the co-Primary Investigator and Team Advisor for Montana Inter-Professional Student Hotspotting, improving outcomes in underserved populations in rural Montana. Above all, she is always, always, having a good time outside with family, friends, food, and an adventure, setting an example for her two young daughters.

Together, and through the values of adventure, growth, authenticity, collaboration, and respect, Jenn and Audrey are working to build a collective of compassionate, confident, critical thinkers who utilize best-practices in their field.


Suggested Keywords

Healthy, Wealthy, Smart, ConEd, Education, Learning, Research, Networking, Integration, Innovation, Collaboration,



Prevention & Wellness for the Running Athlete.


Get 10% off your first retreat: Mention Healthy, Wealthy, & Smart at Registration.


To learn more, follow Audrey and Jenn at:


Facebook:       Trailhead Learning Collective

Instagram:       @audreyroseelias




Subscribe to Healthy, Wealthy & Smart:


Apple Podcasts:




iHeart Radio:     


Read the Full Transcript Here: 


Welcome to the healthy, wealthy and smart podcast. Each week we interview the best and brightest in physical therapy, wellness and entrepreneurship. We give you cutting edge information you need to live your best life healthy, wealthy and smart. The information in this podcast is for entertainment purposes only and should not be used as personalized medical advice. And now, here's your host, Dr. Karen Litzy.



Hey everybody, welcome back to the podcast. I am your host, Karen Litzy. I want to thank you all for joining us today. And again, if you haven't then definitely subscribe to the podcast on any platform in which podcasts are streamed. So today's episode, we are talking about doing continuing education different and my guest today are Dr. Jenn Bell and Dr. Art Audrey Elias. They are cofounders of Trailhead learning collective. Audrey is a clinical faculty in the University of Montana School of Physical Therapy and rehabilitative sciences. She completed her DPT in 2009 Did her residency with therapeutic associates in Washington state and then completed her PhD in Clinical biomechanics at the University of Montana in 2015. She then did a postdoc at the University of Guelph before returning to you and PT as clinical faculty training entry level students and residents in the DPT program and in the UN PT clinic. Her primary area of research involves how psychological factors play into movement, particularly following knee injury. Most importantly, she loves being outside weather, skiing, running, hiking, paddleboarding, or lounging around a campfire with her son and her husband. Jen is the program director and clinical and Director of Clinical Education at UMP T. She completed PT school in 2006 then completed her Colm T in 2012, and her side Dee from Texas Tech in 2013, all while treating patients in a variety of settings in rural Alaska. She has treated patients and taught and PT programs in virtually every setting all over the world including Kenya, Ethiopia and Malawi, and is an internationally recognized expert in interprofessional education and Global Health. She is also the CO primary investigator and team advisor for Montana interprofessional student hotspotting improving outcomes in underserved populations in rural Montana. Above all, she is always having a good time outside with family friends food and an adventurer setting example for her two young daughters together and through the values of adventure growth and authenticity, collaboration and respect. Jen and Audrey are working to build a collective of compassionate, confident critical thinkers who utilize best practices in their field. Now, like I said, they are the founders of Trailhead learning collective. And Jen and Audrey have a special offer for healthy, wealthy and smart listeners. If you go to their website, which is on the podcast dot healthy, wealthy dot smart page, and you want to check out their next learning opportunity. Then you get 10% off because you're listening to this podcast. So if you go to Trailhead Or go to the podcast website, and when you apply to be part of their next learning opportunity, and mentioned this podcast will get 10% off. So a big thank you to Jen and Audrey for that. And in the meantime, everyone enjoyed today's episode. Hello, Jen and Audrey. Thank you so much for coming on to the podcast today to talk about the innovative way you guys are doing continuing education courses. So doing Con Ed differently, and I love it. But before we get into that, Jen, why don't we start with you say a little bit about yourself. So the viewers know or the viewers, the listeners know who's who.



Yeah, it sounds great. So I'm Tim Doyle and I'm the Program Director and the Director of Clinical Education at the University of Montana's physical therapy program. I've been at UN for nine years. I'm just going in to start my 10th year there, which is wild to think I've been doing this for almost a decade. And prior to moving to Montana, I was in Rural Clinical Practice in Alaska. And so I lived in a town of 2500 people at the end of the road for bed hospital. So got to kind of treat whatever walked in the door. It was a really great opportunity. And during that time, I was working on my doctorate of science who Texas Tech University Health Sciences Center. So yeah, it's all about



  1. Excellent, Audrey. Go ahead a little bit more about yourself.



Thanks, Karen. And I'm Audrey Elias. I am also at the University of Montana and clinical faculty there. I treat patients in the clinic, but most of my time is actually treating patients with students. So I'm a preceptor in our integrated clinical education program. And then I also teach in the DPT program, as well. I did my PhD at the University of Montana, I did my DPT at the University of Montana. So I pretty much have been in Montana for a very long time. But I also practiced in Washington, in the far west, on the Olympic Peninsula, in rural areas where we saw lots of different folk. Yeah, and then Jen and I are also cofounders of Trailhead learning collective. So we're heavy, heavy University of Montana. But we're also doing this other thing.



And we are going to talk about that today. But before we get into that, let's talk about the why behind it. So what has your clinical education or continuing clinical education been like in the past where you thought you know, this, I'm not connecting with this and I need to do something different. So talk a little bit about your journeys.



And you go ahead



yeah, um, so you know, carrying that's a great question kind of what informed us to get to this place or we decided to found Trailhead learning collective. You know, I've done I've been in clinical practice and a PT for 15 years, and I've done everything from going to CSM was 17,000 of my closest friends to Education Leadership Conference with the APTA Academy of Education, to, you know, the weekend course that someone brings into their clinic. And what I find oftentimes is that I'm in these courses. And, you know, I'm, I'm finding myself kind of not super engaged with the learning, there's a lot of lecture. And, you know, sitting around going from being in a really active profession where I'm doing everything from crawling around on the ground with my patients to helping them stand up and walk to sitting oftentimes at a plant in a clinic all weekend long, being lectured to. And so I was really looking for something different from that. Actually, what's your experience been? Well,



I did my orthopedic residency right out of school, and in private practice with therapeutic associates in Port Angeles, Washington, and I averaged one three day weekend of Con Ed a month for almost a year and a half. And I hosted those courses, I got the bagels, I got the coffee, I made sure the bathrooms were clean, I did all of that. So I've done a lot of that. And I've been I did my PhD and went to CSM was 17,000 of my closest friends over and over and over again. I've done like every kind of Con, as you can imagine, I've done you know, 45 minute online things through Harkness school for dance injury. I've done level one pelvic floor. And, you know, they got real intimate with 15 brand new people. And to be so to be my authentic self here, I will fall asleep if I am sitting down for more than 20 minutes. And I will not remember a single thing. Anyone tells me if I'm being lectured at, if I'm not actively engaged in I fell asleep in my first class in undergrad. I it's just how I work. So I have to have really engaging Con Ed, you know, if I'm going to learn anything, otherwise, I do it all on my own afterward, right? So I'll go to 18 hours on a weekend where I don't get to go on my run. I don't get to spend time with my family. I have a 10 year old now I don't get to do these other things that I wanted to do. And then I would have to go home and I'd have to review it all on the treadmill. Because now I'm moving I'm doing stuff and then I can actually learn or I'd have to like go for a run with Jen and tell her all about what we just did in order for me to actually process and I just thought to myself You know, I want something different. I want, I want to use this, I want to use this information immediately. And I also think, doing my PhD, we did, I did a randomized clinical trial, post ACL reconstruction stuff, and just trying to get help people understand how to use that. I can't just tell them, it does not work. It doesn't work. We have to do it, we have to not just show we have to do and work together on it. So yeah, I think it's just a long time of realizing that there's a place and a time for everything. And but there's but there needs to be this thing as well, that can serve people like me.



And, you know, you kind of described what a lot of continuing education courses are in the PT world where you go, you sit at a plan, you're taking notes, maybe you get a stretch break, you have like some sort of pastry, and coffee. And the question I always had with those in particular is, what if it's not your learning style? What if you need a little something different, like something that involves more demonstration, more movement, more, getting up more? Just a different style of learning. So what have Have you seen the current state of continuing education? And do you feel like we're really maximizing professional development? Go ahead, Jen.



Oh, Audrey, go ahead. Oh, well, I feel like what's really interesting is that in a physical therapists are super committed to learning. Just in general, I was actually so we're both huge nerds. So he's doing quite a lot of literature search on this. And if I was trying to write an abstract for CSM, I wouldn't be able to, because you have to have at least five papers within the last five or seven years or something. And there just aren't any, there's no literature on what's going on. With Con Ed, currently, there's a paper just this year about so in the PT and PT J, with continuing education courses for orthopedic and sports PTs in the US often lack supporting evidence. And so they went through and review available intervention courses. So great paper. But there was one by Adrian Lowe this year, looking at the impact of a three hour PMP course, on low back pain, and how people did. It was pretty good. It was really interesting. But otherwise, well, next paper is 15 years ago, that I combined. So we don't really know what's going on in the form of knowing that I'm familiar with, we don't really know, in terms of my anecdotal experience, go, the learning environments that I have experienced are not really set up to maximize learning based on pedagogical evidence. So we know that active learning is important. And it just, it makes it like it's really, really hard. We just don't see a ton of that. And I think what happens is that, then we get where content becomes like a chore, right? It's a box, you have to tick, I gotta get Montana, I have to have 20 hours every two years. So I think 3030 Whatever it is, I have to have it and I have to go and check in order to check them tick that box. And I think it ends up becoming problematic on a lot of different levels. Yeah. I don't know if I answered that question completely.



I think so. Jen, do you need to fill in any blanks there? Yeah, well,



you know, I think what Audrey was hitting on thinking about in our continuing education courses, we can bring in the pedagogical research, just like we bring in to physical therapy research. And until you know, we do this a lot in our entry level program, we're thinking about what are the best ways that adults learned? How can we convey this information in a way that's effective that's going to address our learning outcomes, not just our patient outcomes. And so that's really one of the things that Audrey and I are looking to bring to our Trailhead learning collective courses and retreats is bringing in the research on active and learning mean, and teaching adult learners. And so bringing that in, you know, really minimizing the amount of lecture that we do engaging in active learning techniques, whether it's going through cases together, having discussions, you know, putting up big whiteboards and doing some, you know, throwing out ideas and looking at other people's ideas, you know, that way really kind of shifting the paradigm from being teacher centered to being learner centered. So you know, when you're in that lecture based course, it's about this expert that's standing in front of you talking and conveying to you what you should be doing in clinical practice. We're really trying to flip that and bring all of these learners together, oftentimes have, you know, decades of clinical practice, have all of these pearls all of this knowledge, and asking them to share it with one another. And we'll bring in the evidence on, you know, the the content that we're teaching on. But really, not bringing a group of people together that have years of clinical practice, and have learned a lot and asking them to not talk to one another and just listen to what an expert says. So really trying to kind of flip that model and really focusing in on the learner experience, and learner engagement.



Right. And that kind of leads me to the next question, what a perfect transition is, you know, going from a traditional model, which can be effective in getting information from me, the teacher to you, the student? But is it effective when it comes to information processing integration into clinical life? So can you kind of talk about the those concepts as perhaps not being equal and not being the same? And how can we get better integration of information?



Yeah, can you make a great point, you know, lecture is a really effective way to just transfer knowledge. But that piece of integrating it and making changes is where we see that active learning tends to be more effective. Like Audrey said, there's really not great evidence about, you know, do continuing education courses, impact and change how people engage in clinical practice, we hope and we believe that, you know, if we can effectively teach you something, then you'll use that information. So that's like, that's a gap in the research. But we do know that active learning techniques, improve retention, and kind of consolidation of information, and kind of thinking that information deeper into our longer term memory. And so that's why we use active learning techniques. There's also some really cool, early research coming out on looking at the impact of exercise of aerobic exercise, on learning. And so boom strand and inco, Hall and 2020 published a study and they looked at a single bout of aerobic exercise. And what they found is that it improves attention, concentration, and learning and memory functions and young adults. And so there's some studies like that coming out showing that if we can incorporate this component of physical activity, with our learning, either right before, during or after there's some different sides looking at the different benefits of those, then we can improve learning and retention as well.



And can you give some examples of active learning techniques? Because we've said that a couple of times, and I can just picture people being like, Okay, that's cool.



But what does that mean? It was so fun. Because I mean, we've both been teaching. For so long, both I will say we've taught both in the entry level DPT program. And then we've also we teach continuing ed courses before this as well. And mostly in that lecture based thing, we're like, oh, I don't like to teach that either. And I think we both were like, Okay, we need to change this up. So we've gone to a week long training on for the National Institute of scientific teaching, and just teaching how to teach in this way. In the sciences. It's very, it's pretty easy to do in the humanities. But in the sciences, it can be very, like, Oh, I just need to get this information across. Right. So in STEM fields, it's like, well, I just need to know how to pipette or whatever in chemistry. So there are lots of different ways so we can do like gallery walks, put up things with small groups. They process the information put up different ways and how they would do it around the room the rest of the day, and then their entire group walks around the process, we can do two to one, activities, give a prompt, everyone has a minute, maybe, to think on their own individually, maybe write something down there is that reflective cognitive process that comes from actively hand writing something down, that there are mental changes who have to write it down, turn to their neighbor, talk about the individual thing, and then come back in a larger group and, and everybody has to go around and say what their partner did, and pros and cons thereof. So lots of discussion. Obviously, when Jen, you had a really good one that you are doing,



what are the ones that I do with some of my classes is that I, when I start to teach about a new topic, the first thing I do is kind of the same scenario that Audrey just talked about candidate seat by myself, think with a partner and think with a group. But I prompt the group and the learner is to think about what it is you need to know about this topic. So based off your experiences you've had so far, kind of brainstorm, what are the things that you need to know? So we're really priming them to, you know, what is it that I do know? What is it that I don't know? What are things that are what are those, maybe when we share out to group, then people are going to identify those unknown unknowns that they didn't know, they needed to know. And so we can kind of start off by kind of forming a list of everything we're gonna need to go through and talk about, it's great for me, because then I can be like, oh, I need to make sure that we you know, dig into this some more and, and then at the end, we can go back through that list and be like, did we do we know everything we needed to know going into this? And so oftentimes, you know, instead of just starting off with me, like, hi, welcome. And then I start lecturing, why don't we start with you kind of digging into what it is that you want to learn about a topic, and going from there?



Yeah, I love that that's very similar to a course that I took last year through Goldman Sachs called the Goldman Sachs 10 KSB program, which is 10,000 small business program. And it is exactly what you just described, we would get the information, we would they would give us prompts to do ourselves, we have a paired partner, where we would talk about them, then we go into the larger group and talk about what our partners did. And the partners would talk about what we did. And it was really, really helpful. And that's the first time I've experienced that I've never experienced that at a continuing education course. So in it, it it really, like when you're done, you're like, Oh, I yeah, I know this, I understand it, I get the concepts, it's like rooted in there, because you had so many conversations about it with one on one with your instructor and with the group.



I think physical therapy can be so at work, we are so busy, right? Seeing 12 to 20 people a day, sometimes you have to be going, I know, and getting your documentation done all this stuff. It's rote, you're just going, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And so going into a Con Ed course and learning a clinical Pearl for five minutes. And maybe you even talk briefly with your buddy about how you might use that. The sad fact is that on Monday, when you go in your brain, you are going to drop down into habitual levels that just are, especially if you've been in practice for more than six months. And it takes a lot of energy to, to, in the moment, reflect back on what you did and saw and actually incorporate it deeply into your body. But with these techniques, we can get at least a tiny little tendril, of a root. And hopefully that can grow and root a little deeper, so that we see more change in how we're actually working. And we're actually treating patients



and does it sounds like we're becoming a little too robotic. A little too robotic, maybe in work a little too robotic in continuing ed. You know, like, you're okay, I have to go. I'm going to sit, I'm going to listen to these lectures. I'm going to get through it. I'm going to get my CPUs and then I'm going to do this on Monday and then it just doesn't happen. So then what what happens to that continuing education? Does it just fall out of your head like what happens?



Well, how many times have you take learned anatomy of the hip? Every single continuing education course you teach anatomy of the hip? I have taught I learned it. I've taught it many, many times. Each and every single time, I forget it. And I need that review because those things do drop out of our heads so quickly. And it's not bad. It's not saying that we're wrong or awful, that is normal. That is being a human, we can't get away from it.



One of the things that we try to do with these opportunities to really engage with the different people that are there in this in this group with you learning together, is giving you the opportunity to take that that new knowledge, or maybe that review of knowledge you've learned before, and take it and look at it a different way. And think about how you know, the person you're working with is going to use that in their practice, and then really work as a team to think about how can I take this knowledge in on Monday, in my setting, I mean, you know, here in Montana, I have clinicians that are going back to, to dot Montana, and are practicing in the next PT is 100 miles away. So how can they incorporate that into their clinical practice, versus the clinician, you know, that's in a sports specialized clinic in Bozeman, Montana. And so we really want to empower clinicians not just to suck in all the information that we're giving to them, but actually really dig into the material and think about how they can use it. And so one of the things we're trying to do with our courses is challenge the assumption that in these 15, CEUs, that you're going to earn, that we have to pack in as much material as possible. That's really not an assumption that we're working off of. So we're we're going to kind of switch that paradigm and say, instead of having this massive breadth of information, we're gonna give you a smaller amount of information, but we're gonna go a lot deeper. And we're really going to dig into how you can use this in clinical practice. And so it's just a kind of a shift in that assumption.



Yeah. And that leads me into the next question, again, a great lead in how is Trailhead learning collective different? How were you set up differently,



one of the things that we talked about a lot. And going back to when you said, it sounds like we're getting a little robotic. I think one of our kind of prime values, our main values is authenticity and respect. And that's respecting everything from the land that we're on to the humans that we're working with. We are working with humans, our patients are humans, but are we as clinicians are human. And I think it's important to respect that, like taking that much time away is hard. And burnout is very, very real and extremely prevalent. So one of the things that we are really wanting to do is make a trailhead learning retreat, actually, that like it's a retreat, it is the time to rediscover joy. In physical therapy, it's a time to go to a cool place, have someone take care of you. So all inclusive, your housings included, it's delightful, you're on a mountain or on a beach or wherever we happen to be in the desert. In house chef cooking your meals that are delicious, and primed for you. And having active learning where you're an active participant and feeling engaged, and validated and real, and also get to go out and adventure like experience the place. Yeah, I've been to so many cool places for continuing education, and ended up sitting in a plant in a clinic or in a conference room for the entire day. And then, in order to get any exercise at all, I just went for a run on the treadmill in the hotel. And I didn't get to experience anything about that place. So I think one of the thing that is making Trailhead different is we're really trying to treat the learner as a whole human being and make this time worth it both personally and professionally. In kind of all of those different aspects when you go for a cool trail run, we can make that happen. And you can get 15 hours you can tick that box for sure. And we'll make it worth your time. And you get to be taken care of for a little while.



Yeah, kind of reminds me of when you see on social media people saying How come I didn't take Monday off of work after having this continuing ed course it was too much and now I'm like totally burned out. So it sounds like maybe this would quell that a little bit. it. And the other part I wanted to talk about is something that we spoke about before we went on. And that's making a connection with the people in the course with you. Because so often we go to these courses, maybe there's 20 people, maybe there's 100, and you end up knowing no one, when you leave. Right. So how, how are you addressing that?



Yeah, Karen, that's a great point, I went to a continuing education course, a few years ago in San Francisco, and coming from, you know, at the time I was practicing in rural Alaska. And so I really would have loved to get to know more about, like, what is clinical practice, like, in San Francisco compared to, you know, what I am navigating and I left not knowing a single person, you know, part of that is on me, I didn't, you know, I did the thing that a lot of us do it kind of courses, I sat at my phone in the plant, I said, some, you know, small talk at the coffee. And so we're making a really deliberate effort, we're all in the same housing, we're sharing all of our meals together, and engaging in physical activity together, in addition to the time that we're doing the act of learning and getting those continuing ed credits done. And so really creating a space for folks to show up authentically. So I don't expect anyone to show up to her courses, having had 100% success with every single patient they've ever treated, but we want folks to show up and, you know, talk openly and honestly about the places that they struggle in their clinical practice, and, you know, had those conversations and to have this network develop, as we're in this space together. The the course that we're teaching in October is, of course, provincial wellness for the running athlete. And, you know, Audrey is gonna start us off with some really great conversation about bias and how our beliefs about ourselves as runners impacts how we believe and talk to our running athlete, patients. And so you know, being able to kind of explore those parts of ourselves and how they inform our clinical practice, or maybe, at times, potentially cloud our judgment, we can start to have those more intimate conversations as clinicians and people and start to build that network so that when you leave, you have this collective of physical therapists that you know, that you've created some bonds with.



Yeah, so kind of being a little more social. And, you know, off it sounds to me, like business retreats that I've gone on, you know, even if it's a one day mastermind, you leave with these people who, even after one day, kind of stay with you, because you've purposefully made those bonds.



Yeah, exactly. And I think that's one of the things that, that the business role does really well is that if we're gonna bring all these people together, we're going to, you know, put them in spaces and create opportunities for them to network on that deeper level. And in physical therapy, we are so focused on getting our patients better at all are we're so focused on the patient, that oftentimes the time when we gather for continued education, we're not speaking about each other as clinicians. And, and like Audra said those hope people that show up. And so that's one of the ways that we are approaching this differently.



Yeah, it sounds it sounds delightful. And now as we start to wrap things up, what do you want the listeners to take away? What are your big talking points? Or maybe there's only one? I don't know. But what do you want people to take away from? How and why you're doing things differently?



I think one of the one of the things that I want people to understand for themselves is that there is a time and place for everything. And sometimes you need that quick online 30 minutes learning about FAI, or stroke or whatever, because you have a patient who's really like, right, then you need a little bit and you should get some credit for the work that you do in that moment. I think that's excellent. I really like the you know, read for credit that JLS PT does, I had a paper that was a read for credit paper and I was like, This is great. Somebody's gonna like get value, monetary value from reading my paper. That is excellent. traditional lecture has its place but then I think it's fine. I think it's important for people to say you know what, this is what I need. I I need this time and I'm okay with going and getting it I deserve that. I am a value as well. And this is important. So I think you know valuing Oh, that kind of experience a little more. want somebody to take that away? Well, you know, I think that



I have two small daughters. And oftentimes the parenting people say, you know, it's really important to take care of yourself so that you can better take care of your kids. And I think that we have to remember that as clinicians, and so finding ways to really take care of ourselves as, as people and humans, as we're doing this continuing education, certainly there's those times where like Audrey said, you need that quick Con Ed. But there, there is an alternative way to get your continuing education done. That also takes care of yourself.



Yeah, I love it. I love the concept around it. And I, I think you guys are going to be successful in this because it sounds like it's plugging a hole in the continuing education world that people really want. And I also think it's outstanding that you are both been educators for close to a decade. And you can bring all of that to, to continuing education courses. Because I think that's really important. Now, let's talk about when the course is where people can find it social media, where can they find you give us all the details.



Yeah, so our upcoming courses October 7, eighth, and ninth in Whitefish, Montana. So as I said earlier, so of course on prevention and wellness for the running athlete that is paired with guided trail running with our friends and partners with Alpine reading diets. So you can find information about our course and upcoming courses, we're about to announce a winter course that snowshoeing skiing, and biking, fat biking. That's all on our website, Trailhead.,



I wanted to say that we're gonna do 10% off the first retreat for healthy, wealthy and smart listeners, just we so the way we do it is we get your information, and then call you this is a very intimate environment. So we want to start off that way. So you would send us your information that you're interested in the course we call you, we get everything. And at that point, just say that you heard about it from healthy, wealthy and smart.



The last question is what I asked everyone, and knowing where you are now in your life, and in your career, what advice would you give to your younger self and your younger self, let's say maybe right out of PT, school,



you know, the advice that I would give to my younger self, is actually advice that I continue to get to my, I'm not gonna say older self, but current self. And we'll get to my future self. You know, I read this great book, by Adam Grant called Think again. And in the book, he talks about, you know, really staying flexible in your thinking. And I think there's been a lot of times in my life that I've had a five year plan, and I'm going to fix my five year plan. And I think I would encourage my younger self to have maybe a very loose plan, but to not get too stuck on what the five year plan is, there are certainly times in life where that five year plan helps you stick it out, like when you're doing your doctorate or science. But there's been so many opportunities that if I was, you know, had pigeon holed myself into that five year plan, I would have missed them. And so to remain flexible, and keep watching for those various opportunities.



Yeah, I love it. Audrey, how about you?



I think they would give the same advice to myself now that I did, that I would give to my younger self as well. And it's advice that I give to my students. And that would be that it's all worth it. Like all of those experiences are things that you can draw on for your as you're talking to patients. And as you're thinking critically, I teach clinical reasoning, and all of those experiences give you some flexibility of thought. And I think that's really important. So like going and just experimenting and being okay, like it's alright to go do different things that aren't exactly on



your path. Excellent advice from both of you. And I do want to thank you so much for coming on the podcast and talking about doing continuing education different with Trailhead learning collective. I think it's it sounds like a great opportunity, and I encourage all the listeners to check it out. We'll have links at the podcast, follow them on social media. So thank you so much for coming on and sharing all of your fun stuff. Coming up. Thanks so much.



Thanks for having us. Ontarian it's been great to chat with you. Yes. Awesome.



Thanks so much,



and everyone thanks so much for listening. Have a great couple of days and stay healthy, wealthy and smart.



Thank you for listening and please subscribe to the podcast at podcast dot healthy, wealthy And don't forget to follow us on social media

Jul 18, 2022

In this episode, Founder of Enhanced Recovery After Delivery™, Dr. Rebeca Segraves, Co-Founder of Entropy Physiotherapy, Dr. Sarah Haag, Owner and Founder of Reform Physical Therapy, Dr. Abby Bales, and Co-Owner of Entropy Physiotherapy, Dr. Sandy Hilton, talk about the consequences of overturning Roe v. Wade.

Today, they talk about the importance of taking proactive measure in communities, and the legal and ethical obligations of healthcare practitioners. How do physical therapists get the trust of communities who already don’t trust healthcare?

Hear about red-flagged multipurpose drugs, advocating for young people’s education, providing physical therapy care during and after delivery, and get everyone’s words of encouragement for healthcare providers and patients, all on today’s episode of The Healthy, Wealthy & Smart Podcast.


Key Takeaways

  • “Our insurance-based system is not ready to handle the far-reaching consequences of forced birth at a young age and botched abortions.”
  • “We do need to know abortive procedures so that we can recognize when someone has been through an unsafe situation.”
  • “We really need to take into consideration the ramifications of what this will do.”
  • “This is not good healthcare and we need to do more.”
  • “We’re going to have to know our rules, our laws, and what we’re willing to do and go through so that we can provide the care that we know our patients deserve.”
  • “We’re looking at the criminalization of healthcare. That is not healthcare.”
  • “We know who this criminalization of healthcare is going to affect the most. It’s going to affect poor, marginalized people of color.”
  • “We can no longer choose to stay in our lane.”
  • “We need to have a public health physio on the labour and delivery, and on maternity floors.”
  • “We don’t get to have an opinion on the right or wrongness of this. We have a problem ahead of us that is happening already as we speak.”
  • “We need to create more innovators in our field, and education is the way to do that.”
  • “This is frustrating and new, and we’re not going to abandon you. We’re going to figure it out and be there to help.”
  • “Our clinics are still safe. We are still treating you based on what you are dealing with, and we will not be dictated by anybody else.”
  • “If you need help, there is help.”
  • “If we believe in the autonomy of an individual to know all of the information before making a decision, then we still believe in the autonomy of an individual to know all of the information that is best for their body.”
  • “This affects everyone. We’re dedicated to advocating for you.”


More about Dr. Rebeca Segraves

Rebeca Segraves, PT, DPT, WCS  is a physical therapist and Board-Certified Women’s Health Clinical Specialist who has served individuals and families within the hospital and home during pregnancy and immediately postpartum.

She has extensive experience with optimizing function during long-term hospitalizations for high-risk pregnancy and following perinatal loss and pregnancy termination. In the hospital and home health settings, she has worked with maternal care teams to maximize early recovery after delivery, including Caesarean section, birth-related injuries, and following obstetric critical care interventions.

She is the founder of Enhanced Recovery After Delivery™, an obstetrics clinical pathway that maximizes mental and physical function during pregnancy and immediately postpartum with hospital and in-home occupational and physical therapy before and after birth. Her vision is that every person will have access to an obstetric rehab therapist during pregnancy and within the first 6 weeks after birth, perinatal loss, and pregnancy termination regardless of their location or ability to pay.


More About Dr. Sarah Haag

Dr. Sarah Haag, PT, DPT, MS graduated from Marquette University in 2002 with a Master of Physical Therapy. She went on to complete Doctor of Physical Therapy and Master of Science in Women’s Health from Rosalind Franklin University in 2008. Sarah has pursued an interest in treating the spine, pelvis with a specialization in women’s and men’s health, becoming a Board-Certified Women’s Health Clinical Specialist in 2009 and Certification in Mechanical Diagnosis Therapy from the McKenzie Institute in 2010.

Sarah joined the faculty of Rosalind Franklin in 2019. In her roles at Rosalind Franklin, she is the physical therapy faculty liaison for the Interprofessional Community Clinic and teaching in the College of Health Professions.

Sarah cofounded Entropy Physiotherapy and Wellness with Dr. Sandy Hilton, in Chicago, Illinois in 2013. Entropy was designed to be a clinic where people would come for help, but not feel like ‘patients’ when addressing persistent health issues.


More About Dr. Abby Bales

Dr. Abby Bales, PT, DPT, CSCS is the owner and founder of Reform Physical Therapy in New York City, a practice specializing in women’s health and orthopedic physical therapy.

Dr. Bales received her doctorate in physical therapy from New York University and has advanced training through the renowned Herman and Wallace Pelvic Rehabilitation Institute, Grey Institute, Barral Institute, and Postural Restoration Institute, among others. She also holds her Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist certification from the NSCA and guest lectures in the physical therapy departments at both NYU and Columbia University, as well as at conferences around the country.

Dr. Bales has a special interest in and works with adult and adolescent athletes with a history of RED-S (formerly known as the Female Athlete Triad) and hypothalamic amenorrhea. A lifelong athlete, marathon runner, and fitness professional, Dr. Bales is passionate about educating athletes, coaches, and physical therapists about the lifespan of the female athlete. Her extensive knowledge of and collaboration with endocrinologists, sports medicine specialists, pediatricians, and Ob/gyns has brought professional athletes, dancers, and weekend warriors alike to seek out her expertise.

With an undergraduate degree in both pre-med and musical theatre, a background in sports and dance, 20 years of Pilates experience and training, Dr. Bales has lent her extensive knowledge as a consultant to the top fitness studios in New York City and is a founding advisor and consultant for The Mirror and the Olympya app. She built Reform Physical Therapy to support female athletes of all ages and stages in their lives. Dr. Bales is a mom of two and lives with her husband and family in New York.


More About Dr. Sandy Hilton

Sandra (Sandy) Hilton graduated with a Master of Science in Physical Therapy from Pacific University in 1988. She received her Doctor of Physical Therapy degree from Des Moines University in 2013. Sandy has contributed to multiple book chapters, papers, and co-authored “Why Pelvic Pain Hurts”. She is an international instructor and speaker on treating pelvic pain for professionals and for public education.

Sandy is a regular contributor on health-related podcasts and is co-host of the Pain Science and Sensibility Podcast with Cory Blickenstaff.

Sandy was the Director of Programming for the Section on Women’s Health of the American Physical Therapy Association from 2012 - 2017. She is now on the board of the Abdominal and Pelvic Pain special interest group, a part of the International Association for the Study of Pain.


Suggested Keywords

Healthy, Wealthy, Smart, Roe v Wade, Abortion, Trauma, Sexual Trauma, Pregnancy, Advocacy, Pelvic Health, Healthcare, Education, Treatment, Empowerment,


To learn more, follow our guests at:





Instagram:       @sandyhiltonpt



Twitter:            @RebecaSegraves




LinkedIn:         Sandy Hilton

                        Sarah Haag

                        Abby Bales

                        Rebeca Segraves


Subscribe to Healthy, Wealthy & Smart:


Apple Podcasts:




iHeart Radio:     


Read the Full Transcript Here: 


Welcome to the healthy, wealthy and smart podcast. Each week we interview the best and brightest in physical therapy, wellness and entrepreneurship. We give you cutting edge information you need to live your best life healthy, wealthy and smart. The information in this podcast is for entertainment purposes only and should not be used as personalized medical advice. And now, here's your host, Dr. Karen Litzy. Hey everybody,



welcome back to the podcast. I am your host, Karen Litzy. And on today's episode, I am very fortunate to have for pretty remarkable physical therapists who also happen to be pelvic health specialists. On to discuss the recent Supreme Court ruling in the dobs case that overturned the landmark ruling of Roe vs. Wade. How will this reversal of Roe v Wade affect the patients that we may see on a regular basis in all facets, facets of the physical therapy world. So to help have this discussion, I am very excited to welcome onto the podcast, Dr. Rebecca Seagraves and Dr. Abby bales and to welcome back to the podcast Dr. Sandy Hilton, and Dr. Sarah Hague. So regardless of where you fall on this decision, it is important that the physical therapy world be prepared to care for these patients. So I want to thank all four of these remarkable physical therapists for coming on to the podcast. Once the podcast starts, they will talk a little bit more about themselves, and then we will get right into our discussion. So thank you everyone for tuning in. And thanks to Abby, Rebecca, Sandy, and Sarah.



I, my name is Rebecca Seagraves, I'm a private practice pelvic health therapist who provides hospital based and home based pelvic health services and I teach occupational and physical therapists to provide their services earlier in the hospital so that women don't have to suffer.



Perfect Sarah, go ahead.



I am Sarah Haig. And I'm a physical therapist at entropy physiotherapy in Chicago, and I'm also assistant professor and at a university where I do get to teach a variety of health care providers.



Perfect, Abby, go ahead. My name is Abby bales. I'm a physical therapist, I specialize in pelvic health for the pregnant and postpartum athlete. I have my practice in New York City called perform physical therapy, and I do in home visits and I have a small clinic location.



Perfect and Sandy. Go ahead.



Sandy Hilton. I'm a pelvic health physical therapist. I'm currently in Chicago with Sara entropy. And I'm in Chicago and online. Because we can see people for consultations wherever they are, and we may be needing to do more of that.



So the first question I have for all of you lovely ladies, is how will the recent Supreme Court ruling in the dobs case, which was overturning Roe v. Wade? How is that going to affect people who give birth that we see in our clinics in the hospital setting in an outpatient setting in a home setting? So let's start with Sara, go ahead. I'll start with you. And then we'll just kind of go around. And and and also feel free to chime in and you know, the conversation as you see fit? Got?



That's such a big question. And I get to go first. So the question was how, how is this decision going to affect people who give birth? And I would say it just it affects everyone in in kind of different ways. Because I would say what this will undoubtedly do is result in us seeing people who didn't want to give birth. And and I think, you know, the effects of that are going to be far reaching and that we I think maybe we in this little group can have an idea of, of the vastness of this decision, but I think that even we will be surprised at what happens. I think that how it will affect people who give birth. Gosh, I'm kind of speechless because there's so many different ways. But when we're looking at that person in front of us with whatever they need to do For whatever they need assistance with after giving birth, we're going to have to just amplify exponentially our consideration for where they are and how they felt going into the birth, how they got pregnant in the first place. And, and kind of how they see themselves going forward. We talk about treating women in the fourth trimester. And it's, I mean, I'm in that fourth trimester, myself, and I can tell you that it would be harder to ask for help. And I'm really fortunate that I, that I have that I do have support, and that I do have the ability to seek help. I have a million great friends that I can reach out to for help, but I'm just how the how it's gonna affect the women, I'll say, I'm scared, but it's not about me. I'm very concerned for other women who won't be able to access the care that they that they need.



Yeah, Sandy, go ahead. What do you think? How do you feel this decision will affect people who can give birth, especially as they come to see physical therapist, whether that be during pregnancy? As Sarah just said, the fourth trimester, or perhaps after a procedure, or abortion that maybe didn't go? Well? Because it wasn't safe?



Yeah, so I work a lot with pain. One of my concerns is, but what is the future gonna hold for some people who did not want to be pregnant not added some sort of convenience or concern for finances, both of which, you know, your spot in life determines whether or not you have the the ability to raise another person at that moment. So there are individual decisions that people should make, in my opinion, but also, there's the if something happens to you, that you did not give permission to happen. And then you are dealing with the consequences. In this instance, pregnancy, and you happen to have back pain or have hip pain, or have a chronic condition, or a pelvic pain history, where you didn't not want to be pregnant. How's that going to affect the pain and the dysfunction that you're, you are already happening? And will it sensitize people to worse outcomes and recovery afterwards, because this is a, you know, there's a perceived injustice scale, I want to pull that back out. I hadn't been using it very often in the clinic just didn't seem to change the course of care. But I think that when I'm working with the people pre post, during pregnancy, I think I'm going to pull my perceived injustice scale back out and see if that might be a nice way to find out. If I need to hook someone up to a counselor, a financial counselor, psychologist, sexual therapist, anyone who might be able to support this person, we already don't have good support systems for pregnancy. I just am astounded at how much what a bad choice it is to add more need to a system that isn't currently handling the demand. I know we're gonna need to get creative because these people will need help. But I am a little awestruck at the possible quantum s we're gonna walk into



an abbey you had mentioned before we started recording about you know, some of the folks that you see that may have a history of different kinds of trauma, and how that may affect their abilities are to kind of wrap their head around being pregnant and then being forced to give birth because now they don't have any alternative. So how do you feel like that's going to play out in the physical therapy world, if they even get to physical therapy if they even get to a pelvic health therapist?



Yeah, that's, that's one of the things that I was I was thinking about as everyone was chiming in was, we really are just at the precipice in our niche of our profession, where people who give birth are seeking or even hearing about pelvic health and postpartum care, pregnancy care there. Just barely hearing about it. And my I have, you know, a concern, a very deep concern that these people will go into hiding if they have had an abortion in the past, because are we obligated to report that, and what is the statute of limitations on that, and the shame that they might feel for having had an abortion, or having had give birth and didn't want to, and the trauma that my patients who have, for the most part, not everyone who have wanted pregnancies that either the birth is traumatic, the pregnancy is traumatic, they get to a successful delivery, or they have a loss during the pregnancy, the trauma that they are experiencing, and for the most part, I'm seeing adults, and I cannot comprehend children, because it's this gonna be a lot of children who are forced to give birth, or who are having unsafe abortions, and the trauma that they're going to experience, and how, how much it takes for a person who has sexual trauma or birth trauma to get to my clinic, how these young people how these people who feel that shame, I don't know how they're going to get to me, or any of us, except for a real team based approach with pediatricians, with hospitals, with OB GYN, with your gynecologist with people who might see them first before us. I just don't know how they get to us to be able to treat and help treat that trauma. And like Sandy said, that pelvic pain that might be a result of the trauma if if it's unwanted sexual intercourse, I just don't know how we get to them. And that is something that we struggle with now, with, for the most part, wanted pregnancies. And I don't know how we get there. And I don't think we're prepared as a profession. for that. I think the advocacy for getting ourselves into pediatricians offices into into family medicine offices, is going to be so crucial in getting to these patients. But there aren't enough of us. We are not prepared. And our insurance based system is not ready to handle the far reaching consequences of forced birth at a young age and botched abortions. It is not ready to handle that.



Rebecca, go ahead. I'm curious to hear your thoughts around this because of your work in acute care systems.



Absolutely. I believe that I'm beyond the argument of whether this is right, or whether this is wrong. I think that as a profession, we're going to have to quickly change to a mindset of can we be prepared enough to handle what Abby was saying the amount of trauma, the amount of mental health I think, comes to mind when when someone's autonomy is taken away from them in any regard. I was very vocal as to how dangerous it was to force, you know, mandates on people even last year. And now here we are, we're at a point in our profession where we have to now separate our own personal beliefs and be committed to the oath of doing no further harm because this will result in harm, having treated individuals after an unplanned cesarean section or a cesarean hysterectomy, because of severe blood loss. They had no choice in those procedures. And they had no choice in the kind of recovery or rehabilitation they would get. I had to fight an advocate for our services, physical and occupational therapy services to be offered to individuals. So when you're looking someone in the eye who has lost autonomy over their body as last choice has gone through trauma that changes you it changes me really as a profession, even on this a professional or even on this issue. I'm now pivoting as quickly as I can't decide, do I have the skills that's going to be needed to address maybe hemorrhage events from an unsafe abortion that's performed? Maybe the mental health of having to try All across state lines so that you can find a provider that will treat you maybe the, you know, the shame around, you know, even finding Well, you know, is there a safe space for me to be treated for my pelvic health trauma from you know, maybe needing to carry this pregnancy longer than then I would have wanted to, there's, there's so much around this that we really have to start looking at with a clinical eye with a very empathetic or sympathetic eye as pelvic health therapists because of the fact that there's so few of us. And because now we're in a scenario where there will be more people who will be needing services but not knowing who to turn to. So my my biggest hope from this conversation, and many more that we'll have is that there's some how going to be a way to designate ourselves as a safe space for anyone, no matter what choice they've made for their body, period, I'm really done with being on one end of the spectrum with this, I'm a professional that doesn't have that opportunity to just, you know, be extreme on this, I advocate for the person and for their choice over their body period.



I think we need to, and it's just beautifully, beautifully said, the the getting getting some small systemic procedures in place in the communities we live in, is most likely the first step is reach out to the pediatricians and the chiropractors and the massage therapists and the trainers and the school athletic trainers and whoever you find that can have a connection with people and let them know on an individual basis. So like how do you tell people hey, I'm a trustworthy clinic to come to is not usually by writing it on your website. But if you can make connections in your community and be a trusted provider, that's going to go further, I suspect. I'm assuming there's going to be a fair bit of mistrust. And we have to earn it once it's lost. We've got to earn it back. So yeah, I like the proactiveness of that.



I, I totally agree on something you said Sandy sparked something that I would love for a health care lawyer to start weighing in on is we want, I am a safe space. I think every patient I have ever met who sees me cries. And I hold I hold that part of what I do. Very close to me, it's it's an honor to be someone that my patients open up to. And I know all of you on this call feel the same way because we we are that place that they they I love hearing birth stories. I love it. Even it just gives me an insight into that person into that experience. I feel like I'm there with them. And I understand better what they have gone through. But what happens when the legal system is going to come for us? Or them through us? What happens to that? How do we continue to be a safe space where they can share their sexual trauma, their birth trauma, their birth history, their pregnancy history, their menstruation, history, their sexual history? All of those really, really intimate things? How do we continue to be that for our patients?



I think we've had to do this I've had to do this previously, for in some very, in situations of incest in for the most part, we need a trigger warning on this. But, you know, there you have an individual that is a minor, or, or for some reason not independent that is being abused in what is supposed to be their safe space. And then that person, the abuser can be like, Oh, look, I'm helping you get better. And they're actually not safe. So there's some things and if the person you're treating is a minor, that adult has access to their records. And so I've worked in places not I don't know how to do with an EMR but I've worked in places where we have our chart that we write down the official record and sticky notes, which are the things that will not get put in the official record. But we need to have written down so people know it. And we've had to do that in situations where the patient wasn't safe. We all knew the patient wasn't safe. was being worked on to get them safe, but they were not yet safe. And you had to make sure there was nothing in their records that was going to make them more unsafe. I don't know how to do it as an EMR, if someone has a clever way to do that, that'd be great. Or we go back to EMR plus paper charts.



Even to to add to your point, Abby, if we're looking now at possible, you know, jurisdiction, you know, lead legal their jurisdiction or subpoena of documentation, you know, after having intervened for someone who may have had to make a choice that their state did not condone? Yeah, no, I, I'm completely, you know, on guard against that now, and that those are things that I'm thinking about now and thinking about, well, what would my profession do? Would we back, you know, you know, efforts on Capitol Hill to advocate for, you know, someone who, who has lost their, their autonomy, or lost their ability to, to at least have a safer procedure, and we've had to intervene in that way. You know, I think about that now, and I, that makes me fearful that this is such a hot topic issue that, you know, we might not as an organization want to choose size, but we as professionals on the ground as pelvic health therapists, I don't think that we have that luxury and turning someone away. And so So yeah, I think more conversations like this need to be had so that we can form a unified front of at least, you know, pelvic health specialists that can really help with the the after effects of this.



And I think a big barrier to that legal aspect of it is, you know, what is our legal responsibility. And what happens, if we don't do XYZ is because a lot of the laws and a lot of these states, some of these trigger laws and other laws being that are being passed, the rules seem to be a bit murky. They're not clear. And so I agree, I think the APTA or the section on pelvic health needs to come out with clear guidelines as to what we as healthcare professionals, can and should do. But here's the other thing that I don't understand and maybe someone else can. What about HIPAA? Isn't that a thing? Where did the HIPAA laws come in to protect the privacy between the provider and the patient? And I don't know the answer that I'm not a lawyer, but we have protection through hip isn't that the point of a HIPAA HIPAA laws? I don't know what



you would think so. But unfortunately, one of the justices who shall not be named has decided that abortion does not fall under HIPAA, because it involves the life of another being in so I can only state what has been stated or restate. But yes, the those are the very things that I'm afraid we're up against as professionals.



Yeah, I think they're going to try to make us mandatory reporters. for it. I think they're gonna try to make all healthcare we are mandatory. For some things, the thing that's good for some things. Yeah, the



thing that bothers me about that is the where I'm in Illinois right now, Illinois is a designated, look, we're not, we're not going to infringe on people's right to health care. Just great. But some of the laws and I've lost track, I was trying to keep track of how many have are voting on or have already voted on laws that would have civil penalties, penalties of providers from other states, regardless of the Practice Act of that provider, to be able to have a civil lawsuit against that provider. So that's fun. And then we go back to what ABBY You had mentioned before we started recording about medicine, that that is considered an abort efficient, I have a really hard time with that word. But that is also used for other conditions that we see in our clinics for pain for function and things like that. And then where's our role?



Right, so does someone want to talk about these more specific on what those medications are and what they're for? So that people listening are like, Okay, well, what medications, you know, so do you want to kind of go into maybe what those medications are, what they're for and how they tie back into our profession. Because, you know, a lot of people will say, well, this isn't our lane. So we're trying to do these podcasts. so people understand it's very much within our lane.



Well, I yeah, it's just from a pharmacology standpoint, the one of the probably most popular well known drugs that's used for abortion is under the generic name of Cytotec misoprostol, and that's a drug that's not only only used for abortion, but if individual suffers a miscarriage is used to help with retained placenta and making sure that the uterus clears. What other people don't know is is also used for induction. So the same drug is used for three or four different purposes. It's also used for postpartum hemorrhage. So measle Postel, or Cytotec is a drug as pelvic health therapists we should be very familiar with. And we should be familiar with it. Not only you know, for, you know, this this topic, but it's also been a drug that's been linked with the uterus going into hyperstimulation. So actually putting someone at risk for bleeding too heavily. And all of this has a lot of implications on someone's mental health, who's suffered a miscarriage who's gone through an abortion that maybe was not safely performed, which I have had very close experience with someone who's been given misoprostol Cytotec, it didn't take well, she continued bleeding through the weekend, because she lived in a state where emergency physicians could opt out of knowing a board of medications. So as professionals, we do need to know, a board of procedures so that we can recognize when someone has been through an unsafe situation it is, it is our oath as metal as medical professionals to know those things, not to necessarily have a stance on those things that will prevent us from providing high quality and safe care.



Another one of the medications is methotrexate, and it's used to treat inflammatory bowel disease. And as public health specialists, we'd see people who have IBD, Crohn's and Colitis, who have had surgery who are in flareups who are being treated like that treated with that medication. And it is again used in in abortions. And when you're on that medication, you have to take pregnancy tests in order to still be able to get your prescription for that medication. And as a person who I myself have inflammatory bowel disease and have been on that medication before, I can tell you that you don't go on those medications lightly. It is you are counseled when you are of an age where you could possibly get pregnant, and taking those medications. And it's very serious to take them. And you also have to get to a certain stage of very serious disease in order to take that it's not the first line of defense. So if we start removing medications, or they start to be red flagged on EMRs, or org charts, and we become mandatory reporters for seeing that medication, God forbid, on someone's you know, they're when they're telling us what type of medications they're taking, that there would be an inquiry into that for for any reason is just it's it's horrifying. I mean, it's, we treat these patients and they trust us, and we want them to trust us. But as we get farther and farther down this rabbit hole of, of going after providers, pharmacists, people who help give them information to go to a different state, I just it is. Like I said before, the breadth and the depth of this decision, reverberates everywhere. And if if PTS think that they are in orthopedic clinics, that they are somehow immune from it, you're absolutely not. And for those clinics who have taken on or encourage one of their one of their therapists to take on women's health because it's now a buzz issue. It's really cool. You are now going to see that in your clinic. And you know, like Rebecca was saying before, you know any number of us who have really strong and long term relationships with patients who are pregnant who are in postpartum I have intervened and sent patients to the hospital on the phone with them because they have remnants of conception and they have a fever and someone's blowing them off and not letting them into the IDI and sending them home. And we we are seeing those patients, they have an ectopic they're, they're bleeding, is it normal, they're calling me they're not calling their OB they can't get their OB on the phone. They're texting me and saying what should I do? And they have that trust with me and what happens when they don't? And they're bleeding and they're not asking someone that question and they don't know where to go for help. And so I know I took this in a different direction and we talked about pharmacology, but I just thing that I have those patients whose lives I have saved by sending them to the emergency department, because they are sick, they have an infection, they are bleeding, they have an ectopic, it is not normal. And I don't know what happens when they no longer have that trust with us not not because we're not trustworthy, but because they're scared.



The heavy silence of all of us going



you know, it's, it's not wrong. And I think the like, it just keeps going through my head. It's just like, so what do we do? I mean, Karen, you mentioned like, it'd be great if somebody came out with a list of, of guidance for us. And I just, that just won't happen. Because there's different laws in different states, different practice acts in different states. And no one, you know, like you even if you talk to a lawyer, they're going to say, this would be the interpretation. But also, as of yet, there's no like case law, to give us any sort of any sort of guidance. So that was a lot of words to say, it's really hard. I can tell you in Illinois, like two or three weeks ago, I'd be like, like, I'm happy, I feel like Illinois is a pretty safe space. We have, we have elections for our governor this year. And I have never been so worried, so motivated to vote. And so motivated to to really make sure to talk to people about it's not just like this, this category or this category, it's like we really need to take into consideration the ramifications of what this will do, I think there was a lot of this probably won't affect me a whole lot. But I think I'm guessing I think a lot of us on this call maybe I think all of us on all of us on this call, have lived our lives with Roe v. Wade. And, as all of this is coming up, and just thinking about how it impacts so many people, and how our healthcare system is already doing not a good job of taking care of so many people, the fact that we would do this with no, no scientific, back ground, no support scientifically. Like I pulled up the ACOG statement, and, and they condemn this devastating decision. And I really, I was like, it gave me gave me goosebumps. And this was referred to in our art Association's statement. And it makes me sad that we didn't condemn it. Hope that's not too political. But I'm really sad that we didn't take a stronger stance to say, this is not good health care. And we need to do more. Again, and that's like, again, so many words, to say we're gonna have to make up our own minds, we're gonna have to know, our rules, our laws and what we're willing to do, and go through, so that we can provide the care that we know our patients deserve. And that's going to be really hard. Because, you know, if I talk to someone, and if I call Rebecca in Washington State, she's going to have something different than if I talk to Abby in New York. And you know, that so it'll be, it'll be really hard even to find that support. That support there's going to be so much support, I think, from this community, but that knowledge and that, that confidence, we have to pull together so we have to pull together with all the other providers, but also we're gonna have to sit down and figure this out to



the clarity. So it's, I think a practical step forward would be each state to get get, like, every state, come up with a thing. So pelvic health therapists in that state come up with what seems to work for them get a lovely healthcare lawyer to to work with them with it. And then we could have a clearinghouse of sorts of all of the state statements. I don't know that that needs to go through a particular organization. I I know that they're in the field of physical therapy, two thirds of PTS aren't members. And we need this information to be out there for every single person so that they know



that we'll have to be grassroots there's I don't think that there's going to be widespread Association support from anywhere. But that being said, I think it's a great idea.



What are we going to do about it? Hang on issues that are too divisive, you're absolutely right, individual entities are going to have to take this on and just put those resources out to therapists who need them need the legal support, need the need to know how and how to circumvent issues in their states. And, you know, like I said before, even how to just provide that emotional support, there's going to be needed for their, their, their patients, so, and that's okay, if the organizations that were part of are not willing to take a heavy stance, you know, even like last year, if you're not willing to take a heavy stance, on an issue where someone feels their autonomy, and their choice is being threatened, then it's okay, well, we'll take it from here. But, you know, that's, that's really where these grassroots efforts come from and abound, because there are a group of individuals who are willing to say, No, this is wrong. And I'm going to do something about this so that our future generations don't have to suffer.



Yeah, and I think, you know, we're really looking at the criminalization of health care.



That is not healthcare.



And we also know who this criminalization of healthcare is going to affect the most. And it's going to affect poor, marginalized people of color, it is not going to affect the wealthy white folks in any state, they'll be fine. So how do we, as physical therapist, deal with that? How do we, how do we get the trust of those communities who already don't trust health care, so now they're going to stay away even more, we already have the highest mortality, maternal mortality rates in the developed world, I can only imagine that will get worse because people, as we've all heard today are going to be afraid to seek health care. So where do we go from here as health care providers? I,



Karen, you're speaking something that's very near and dear to my heart, I act as if you had to take this on, I am very adamant that we can no longer choose to stay in our lane, we do not have that luxury. And I as a black female, you know, physical therapist, I don't have the luxury to ignore that because of the color of my skin, and not my doctor's degree, not my board certification and women's health, you know, not my faculty position, I when I walk into a hospital, and I either choose to give birth or have a procedure, I will be judged by none other than the color of my skin. That is what the data is telling me is that I am three times likely to have a very severe outcome. If I were to have a pregnancy that did not go as planned or or don't choose a procedure, you know, that affects the rest of my function in my health. And so given the data on this, you're absolutely right there, there is going to be very specific populations that are going to receive the most blowback from this. And as a pelvic health therapist, I had to go into the hospital to find them, because I knew that people of color and of marginalized backgrounds, were not going to find me in my clinic. And we're not going to pay necessarily private pay services to receive that care. But I needed to go where they were most likely to be and that was the hospital setting or in their home. And so, again, as a field of a very dispersed and you know, not very many of us at all, we're going to have to pivot into these areas that we were not necessarily comfortable in being if we're going to address the populations that are going to be most affected by the decisions our lawmakers are making for our bodies.



You know, there's something that I think about, often when I hear this type of conversation come up in, in sexual health and in in whenever I am speaking with one of my patients and talking about their menstruation history, and, and them not knowing how their body works from such a young age is I just wonder if we should be offering programs for young people like very young pre ministration you know, people with uteruses and their parents, and grandparents and online, online like little anonymous. Yep. nonnamous



for it's just



Yes. Yes, it's it's just, you know, Andrew Huberman talks a lot about having data Back to free content that scientific, that's factual. And I think about that a lot. And I think, to my mind, where I go with this, because I do think about the lifespan of a person, is that creating something that someone can access anonymously at any age, and then maybe creating something where it's offered at a school? You know, it's it's ministration health. And it doesn't have to be under the guise of, you know, this happened with Roe v. Wade, but this it could be menstruation, health, what is a person who menstruating what can you expect? What you know, and going through the lifespan with them, but offering them? You know, I think I think about this with my own children, as our pediatrician always asks the question of the visit, who is allowed to see under your clothes who is allowed to touch you? And it's like, you and my, I have a five year old. So it's Mom, when when when I go number two, a mom or dad when I go number two? And that's it. And you know, I think about that, and I think about how we can educate young people on a variety of things within this topic, and kind of include other stuff, too, that's normal, not normal, depending on their age. Absolutely, there



was what I was excited about in pelvic health. Before this was people like Frank to physician and his PhD students and postdocs are working on a series of research about how if we identify young girls that are starting their period, and having painful periods, treat them and educate them, then that they will not go on to have as much pelvic pain conditions and issues in the future. So we look at the early childhood events kind of thing, but also period pain. And How exciting would it be if we could get education to young girls about just how their bodies work. And to know that just because you all your aunties have horrible periods doesn't mean that you're stuck with this, just like maybe they just didn't know, let's help you out and constipation information and those basic health self care for preventative problems. So I was super excited about all that. And now it's like, oh, now we have to do it. Because in that we can do little pieces of information. So people have knowledge about their body, that's going to be a little bit of armor for them, that they're going to need and free and available in short, and you know, slide it past all the YouTube sensors. This is this is doable, but it's gonna take time money doing, but we can do it. Well, it sounds like, ladies,



we've got a lot of work to do. One other thing I wanted to touch upon. And we've said this a couple of times, but I think it's worth repeating again and again and again. And that's that expanding out to other providers. So it's expanding out, as Rebecca said, expanding out to our colleagues in acute care, meaning you can see someone right after a procedure right after birth right after a C section. And, and sadly, as we were saying, I think we they may start seeing more women, I'm not even set children under the age of 18. In these positions of force birth on a skeletally immature body. So the only place to reach these children would be maybe in that acute care setting. How what does the profession need to do in order to make that happen? And not not shy away from it, but give them the information that they need. Moving forward?



I was just gonna say that I've given birth in the hospital twice. Not at any time was I offered a physical therapist, or did a physical therapist come by and I am in New York City. I gave birth in New York City, planned Solarians because of my illnesses. And nobody came by I did get lactation nurses, any manner of people who were seeing me I was on their service. But that has been something that we needed anyway. We mean to have a pelvic health physio on the labor and delivery and on the maternity floors, who is coming by educating as to what they can start with what they can expect. When can they have an exam if they want to have one? Who is a trusted provider for them to have one. And we need to get the hospitals to expand acute care, physical therapy to labor and delivery and, and the maternity floors. As a routine, it's not something you should have to call for, it should be routine clearance for discharge the same way you have to watch the shaking baby video to get discharged.



I'm happy older than all of you. I don't have it either. But taking baby video is not something that even existed back in the day. But that makes sense. I mean, I once upon a time was a burn therapist, and I was on call at a regional Trauma Center. And you know, it's like you're needed your, your pager goes off, because that's how long ago it was. And you just came in, did your thing, went back home went back to bed. There is no reason other than lack of will, that PTS couldn't be doing that right now.



I'm now of the opinion where it's unethical to not offer physical or occupational therapy within 24 to 48 hours of someone who had no idea who did not have a planned delivery the way they expected it who has now and a massively long road to recovery. After a major abdominal surgery, I'm now of the opinion that is unethical for our medical systems to not offer that those rehabilitative services. And I've treated individuals who had a cesarean section but suffered a stillbirth. So the very thought of not providing services to someone who has any kind of procedure that's affecting, you know, their their their not only their pelvic health, but their mental function. That to me is now given the you know, these these, this recent decision on overturning Roe v Wade, is now now we're never, you know, either we're going to now pivot again as pelvic health therapists and start training our acute care colleagues, as we did with our orthopedic colleagues, as we've done with, you know, our neurology colleagues, whatever we've had to do as pelvic health therapists to bring attention to half of the population, you know, who are undergoing procedures, and they're not being informed on how to recover, we will have to start educating and kind of really grow beyond just the clinics and beyond what we can do in our community or community. But we are going to have to start educating our other colleagues in these other settings, we don't have a choice, we know too much, but we can't be everywhere. And not all of us can be in the hospital setting, we're going to have to train the individuals who are used to seeing anything that walks through the door and tell them get over to the obstetric unit. Okay, there's someone there waiting for you.



Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, when I think back I remember as a student working in acute care and how we had someone who's dedicated to the ICU, we had someone dedicated to the medical floor, we had somebody who was dedicated to the ortho floor, and most of the time they had their OCS, their, their, the one for for, for ICU care, the one for NeuroCare, or they have a specialty. And I think it is just remnants of the bygone era of it's natural, your body will heal kind of BS from the past. It's just remnants of that and it's just, we don't need the APTA to give us permission to do this, this is internal, this is I'm going into a hospital, and I'm presenting you with a program. And here is what this what you can build this visit for here's the ICD 10 code for this visit here is here is here are two people who are going to give you know, one seminar to all of your PT OTs, to you know, so that you are aware of what the possible complications and when to refer out and that kind of thing. And then here are two therapists who are acute care therapists who are going to also float to the maternity floor one of them every day, so that we can hit the we can get to these patients at that point, and that is just that's just people who present a program who have an idea, who get it in front of the board that that it is not permission from anybody else to do it. And, you know, it really it fires me up to to create a world in which you know, when you know people who are the heads of departments and chairs and you know on the boards of directors You know, being in big, big cities or small cities, when you know those people, you know, you can, your passion can fire them up. And if you can fire people up, and you can advocate for your patients and you can in that can spread, you can make that happen. And this is, you know, I feel radicalized by this, I mean, I'm burning my bra all over the place with this kind of thing. And I just feel like, if we can, if we can get to young people, and if we can get to day zero, of delivery, day one, post delivery, or post trauma, then then maybe we can make a dent, maybe we can, maybe we can try, maybe we can really make a go of this for these people. Because, like I keep feeling and saying I, we are not prepared for the volume.



If individuals are going to be forced to carry a pregnancy, that they may not want to turn because it's affecting their health, we're going to have to be prepared for this. Again, this is not an option really, for us as pelvic health therapists, because we know what's down the road, we've seen mothers who have or you know, or individuals who have suffered strokes or preeclampsia or seizures, or, you know, honestly, long term health issues because of what pregnancies have done to their body. And now if they want the choice to say, you know, I'm not ready, they don't have it anymore. So we really don't have a choice. We have to start expanding our services into these other settings, making our neurologic clinical specialists in the hospital, see people before they have a stroke before they have a seizure actually provide services that can help someone monitor their own signs and symptoms after they've had now a procedure or given birth or even had, you know, a stillbirth, unfortunately, because the doctor had to decide, well, yes, now we will perform the abortion because you know, your health is like on the cliff, I mean, we're going to be seeing these and we just have to prepare. And if it's not our organizations that are laying the foundations, we will, we'll take it from here,



we need to reach out across so many barriers, like athletic trainers, they're gonna see the young girls, they're gonna see their track stars that is not reds, it's pregnancy. And it could be a very short lived traumatic pregnancy, in girls that are just not develop. They're developed enough to get pregnant, they're not developed enough to carry a healthy baby to term. Kind of just makes me like. But Rebecca is right as we don't get to have an opinion on the right or wrongness of this, we have a problem ahead of us now, that that is happening already, as we speak, that people are going to need help. I love that we have more technology than my grandma did when she was fighting this battle. And we have YouTube and we have podcasts and we have ways to get information out. But we need to use every single one of them in our sports colleague or athletic trainer colleagues. They need to know the signs. Because they may be the ones that see it first.



Yeah. And Sarah as being the most recent new mother here. What kind of care did you get when you were in the hospital?



I was sitting here thinking about that. And I mean, I will say that the care I had while I was there, that I had an uncomplicated delivery in spite of a very large baby. And I was fortunate enough to leave the hospital without needing additional help. But I wasn't offered physio. Nobody really they're just really curious to make sure you're paying enough. And that's about it if you're the mom and my six week visit was actually telehealth and that was the last time I had contact with a health care professional regarding my own health so it is minimal even if you're a very fortunate white woman in a large metropolitan area and but I'm working now further north and with a pro bono clinic clinic and in an area where we do a lot of work with communities of color and I'm I'm like I honestly don't even know the hospitals up here yet. But I'm gonna I have so many post it notes of things that are gonna start happening and start inquiring because Rebecca like we need to get into the hospitals like if if I can Do that. And honestly, up until now, like my world and entropy was, and pre this decision was it, there's so many people out there who need help with pelvic issues in general, like we can do this forever. And we set our clinic up so that people who weren't doing well in the traditional health care system could find us and afford us. At least some people could, I realized that it wasn't in companies, encompassing everybody who could possibly need help, but we were doing trying to figure out another way. And so again, like, like, again, the offer of assistance I got was minimal. But also I didn't need much. And I was in a position where also, I knew I could, I could ask for it if I wanted it. And I could probably get it if I needed it. And I'm just thinking about, again, some of the communities I'm interacting with now, in some of my other roles and responsibilities, and I cannot wait to take a look and see, how can we get in there? How can we be on that floor? How can we? What What can we make, make happen like, because it needs to happen, these are these, this is the place where I'm scared to start seeing the stats,



wouldn't it be amazing if you can get the student clinic part of that somehow somehow and get, you know, young beyond that bias, but younger, most younger but but like the physicians the the in training the PTs and training the PAs the you know, and get like Rebecca had said, let's get let's get the team up to speed here, because there aren't enough pelvic health therapists already. And they're heavens, we need, we need to get everybody caught up.



And there's so much I was telling you that being around student health care, providing your future health care providers is really energizing and also really interesting. I mean, the ideas that come up with in the in the connections they make and and the proposals they make are just amazing. But two things that I've noticed that I think probably we run into in the real world, real world, outside school world as well, is one. The that's being able to have enough people and enough support to keep it sustainable. So you have this idea, you have the proposal, you made the proposal, how are we going to keep it going and finding the funding or the energy or the volunteers to keep it going. Things ebb and flow, you get a great proposal, you're like yes. And then I literally today was like, I wonder what's up with that one, because it was an idea for a clinic to help was basically for trans people to our tree transitioning and might not have the support that they need. And also I was reached, they come up here for women's health clinic. And I'm going to reach out to them now. Because this again, this decision changes that because it is a pro bono clinic that they would like to set this up in and before it was going to be much more more wellness. And now it could turn out to be essential health care. So that's one thing. But then the other thing is still the education, that in school, we're not taught about what everyone else can do. And I think again, figuring out a way to make sure that future physicians really know what physical therapists have to offer, especially in this space. Most people know that if their their shoulder, their rotator cuff repair, they should send them to pt. But really, we need to get in with OB GYN news, we need to get in with the pediatricians. And I don't want to say unfortunately, but in this regard, unfortunately, we're going to have to really make sure that they know what we're doing. And again, I'm already kind of trying to think like how can we make this just part of how we do health care.



So I think I'm following in your footsteps by going into education and by by being a part of our doctor of physical therapy programs. You know, I especially chose the program in Washington state not because you know, of just the the the opportunity to teach doctors or incoming doctors but it was also an opportunity to teach doctors of osteopathic medicine and occupational therapy therapists. It was you know, very intimate program and opportunity to make pelvic health or women's health or reproductive health apart of cardiopulmonary content, a part of neurology content, a part of our foundations a part of musculoskeletal and not a special elective course that we get two days of training on, I had the opportunity to literally insert our care, our specialized and unique care and every aspect of the curriculum, as it should be, because we are dealing with, you know, more or less issues that every therapist generalists or specialists should be equipped to handle. So in the wake of Roe v Wade, to me, this is an opportunity unlike any other for pelvic health therapists to really get into these educational spaces where incoming doctors are, you know, MDS or PA programs, or NP programs are our therapy practices, and start where students are most riled up and having those ideas so that they can go out and become each one of us, you know, go into hospitals and say no, to obstetric units being ignored, go into hospitals and give and services to physicians. You know, we need to create more innovators in our field and education is the way to do that.



I just wrote down check Indiana and Ohio, and then I wrote border clinics, because Because Illinois is a it's like a not a prohibition state. Having so many flashbacks, because Illinois, is, is currently dedicated to maintaining health care access for everyone. We have cities that are on the border. And I was thought of that when you were talking, Sarah, because you're up next to Wisconsin now. But we have we have the southern part of the state and the western part of the state. And those those border towns are going to have a higher influx than I will see in Chicago, maybe. But I would anticipate that they would,



you know, and again, this is where laws are murky. Every state is different. It's I mean, it's a shitshow. For lack of better way of putting it I don't think there's any other way to put it at this point. Because that's kind of what what we're dealing with because no one's prepared, period. So as we wrap things up, I'll go around to each of you. And just kind of what do you want the listeners to take away? Go ahead, Sandy,



this is this is frustrating and new, and we're not going to abandon you. We're gonna figure it out and be there to help.



I would say that our clinics are still safe, it is still a safe place for you to open up and tell us what you wouldn't tell anybody else. It's still safe with us. And we still have you as an entire person with all of your history. We are still treating you based on what you are dealing with and not. We will not be dictated by anybody else. Our care won't be mandated or dictated by anybody. Sarah, go ahead.



What I would say is I would echo your safe. If you need help, there is help. And I'm sorry, that that this just made it harder than it already was. And I would say to healthcare providers, please let remember, let us remember why we're doing what we're doing. And, you know, we do need to stand up, we do need to continue to provide the best care for our patients. Because to be honest, I've been thinking like, I think it's a legal question. It's a professional question. But ultimately, if we can't give the best care possible, I'm not sure I should do this.



Ahead, Rebecca,



for our health care providers, in the wake of Roe v. Wade, being overturned, wherever we are, you know, as an organization or on our stance, if we believed in the autonomy of an individual to know all of the information before making a decision, then we still believe in the autonomy of an individual to know all of the information that is best for their body. And that is the oath that's the that's the that's the promise that we've made as professionals to people that we're serving, and to the people that we're serving to those who are there listening to this. You have safe spaces with providers that you trust and we're going to continue to educate one another, our field and also you we're going to put together resources that really bring During this education to your families so that you don't have to feel like you're in the dark and you're alone. This is not something that is per individual or per person. This affects everyone. And we're dedicated to advocating for you.



Perfect, and on that we will wrap things up. Thank you ladies so much for a really candid and robust discussion. I feel like there are lots to do. I think we've got some, some great ideas here. And perhaps with some help and some grassroots movements, we can turn them into a reality. So thank you to Rebecca to Sarah to Abby and to Sandy, for taking the time out of your schedules because I know we're all busy to talk about this very important topic. So thank you all so so much, and everyone thanks so much for listening, have a great couple of days and stay healthy, wealthy and smart.



Thank you for listening and please subscribe to the podcast at podcast dot healthy, wealthy And don't forget to follow us on social media



Jul 11, 2022

In this episode, Founder and CEO of Practice Freedom U, Jamey Schrier, talks about hiring and retaining staff.

Today, Jamey talks about changing how business owners see employees, the 3X rule, and digging deep to find clarity. What can business owners do to hire the right people?

Hear about the importance of being inspired by your vision, successful marketing strategies, slowing down the hiring process, and get Jamey’s advice to his younger self, all on today’s episode of The Healthy, Wealthy & Smart Podcast.


Key Takeaways

  • “Besides you, your employees are the most important people in your business life.”
  • “Meet your prospects where they are.”
  • “Employees want to work for a company that has a purpose.”
  • “The first person your vision needs to inspire is you.”
  • “When clarity happens, you get power, you get confidence, and you get dialed in. When you have that kind of focus, that’s where magic happens.”
  • “We’ve become infatuated with advancement. We’ve become infatuated with certifications.”
  • “Hire for traits. Train for skill.”
  • “If you are a business that’s growing, then you can never stop looking for talent.”
  • “Having a process and slowing things down is critical.”
  • “Be vulnerable. Be open.”


More about Jamey Schrier

Jamey Schrier, P.T. is a best-selling author, speaker, and Founder and CEO of Practice Freedom U, a business training and coaching company.

Jamey is a former private practice owner, and his book, The Practice Freedom Method has helped scores of practitioners Treat Less, and Earn More, and enjoy a life they deserve.


Suggested Keywords

Healthy, Wealthy, Smart, Business, Hiring, Employment, Purpose, Vision, Values, Inspiration, Interviews, Focus, Strategies, Marketing,


Get $200 off Jamey’s Course


To learn more, follow Jamey at:


LinkedIn:         Jamey Schrier, PT

Facebook:       Practice Freedom U

                        Jamey Schrier

Twitter:            @JameySchrier

Instagram:       @JameySchrierPFU


Subscribe to Healthy, Wealthy & Smart:


Apple Podcasts:




iHeart Radio:


Read the Full Transcript Here: 


Hey Jamie, welcome back to the podcast. I'm happy to have you on I think you're quickly becoming my most regular guest and I'm really happy and thankful for it. So welcome back. Oh, thanks, Karen. I



appreciate being invited back and I am honored to be a regular it's like the old school while I'm dating myself here with the Johnny Carson Show. I mean, that's, that's going back and I don't want to date either one of us, but it's like, you know, the regular guests that's on there. They can't find anybody. There. Schreier. He's a felon. He didn't come in there and fill up some time.



Oh, that's so funny. I think I was watching Seth Meyers and Rachel Drac was on and that's what they said, Rachel Drac is like, you know, someone else was supposed to be there. But I don't know if they got sick, or they couldn't make it. And so they called her that afternoon. She was like, Sure. Tell me about her.



Oh, I've watched a sports show called PTI. Pardon the Interruption around it takes place right in DC. And one of the guys is called Phil and Frank. It's like, if they ever need anybody, someone's out sick. You know, Frank, I saw he, he jumps in and fills in at any, you know, at a moment's notice. So, you know, I don't know if I'll fill in Jamie. But well, well, you're



not, you're not filling in, you're just a regular guest.



Thank you, thank you,



not a fill in. It's just a regular guest. So today, we're going to talk about something I don't think I've really talked about on the podcast, at least, I can't remember talking about this in great detail. And that is, how to hire people how to retain staff, which, you know, as we were speaking before we went on is a problem, not just in physical therapy right now, but in a lot of industries across the board around the country. So let's dive in. So you have four surprisingly simple ways to hire and retain staff. So let's get to it.



Yeah, I mean, you know, as we know, it's a difficult marketplace. And I think, you know, this shift isn't just a shift that is, oh, they're gonna have a shift, and it's gonna be all fine tomorrow. No, I'm not gonna say it's not a permanent shift, as far as we're always going to have this difficulty, you know, really finding good people. But I do think it's a shift that is going to stay around as far as what people are deeming important, what people are deeming valuable. And I think it's important for us in the hiring marketplace, that we begin to shift how we as business owners, and that's kind of the position, I always come from being a business owner, and you being a business owner, is how we need to shift our way how we think about employees. You know, it's interesting, you know, I speak to so many people every day, every week, whether there are clients or, or just people out and about and in the business industry, and, you know, I can't tell you, Karen, how many times people talk about employees as a cost, right? It's like, oh, how much are they going to cost and, and I don't know if I can afford them, and all they care about is wanting more money, and this and that, and, um, you know, and it, it kind of, it hits me, because I think the first thing we have to do collectively, at least as a group of business owners is start to shift that your employees besides you, your employees are the most important people in your life and your business life. And if you don't mentally look at them as an investment, just like you look at any other investment you're doing, that will bleed into other things. It'll bleed to how you treat them, it'll bleed into some of the things you say are some of the things that you create or benefits or whatever the case is. And I've seen that so often, I used to do that, because I used to kind of think that way is they were a cost come in, do your job, shut up and just leave me alone type of thing. And you know, that is not the right way. It's never been the right way. But now more than ever, that's kind of the premise of all of this is shifting in these people are an investment. And investments are things that you want to nurture. You want to help you want to grow, you want to be assets. And I think it takes that fundamental shift before anything, because if not, everything just becomes an empty strategy or something but it won't hold. It won't have teeth to it. If there isn't that shift and how we think you know what I mean?



I do I do and I think that's a really great distinction that you made that you for employers to look at their employees as a real investment, because if that employee is nurtured and you help them grow, if they can help grow and expand your business in ways that you never thought could even be possible.



Exactly. And it sounds simple, it's easy to read in a book or listen on a wonderful podcast, but actually doing it in the moment is not as easy to do. Because we have wiring ourselves, we have thoughts, we have biases, we have upbringings and influences in our lives, as we all do. And these things, you know, whether you call them, you know, limiting beliefs or negative biases, we have all of these things that start to affect how we think and how we communicate. And how we ultimately, you know, put into action, some of these things. And if you don't feel that way, you don't think that way, it will come out, during how you interview how you post an ad. I mean, you know, I can be very honest with you, I know, you know, my ads used to be going on, I don't even know if it was indeed at the time, but going on whatever the latest thing was Craigslist or something, and just looking at another company and just copying their ad. I mean, I didn't know what to say, I didn't really know what I was doing. But I just thought, hey, if the hospital, you know, put an ad up, they must know what they're doing. Because they got you know, a lot of money and they hire good people. So my ad was basically a hospital ad. And what's interesting is, so many so many people continue to do that they, they put up some vanilla job ad on indeed. And they're like, well, this used to work, it ain't working anymore, you cannot do that anymore. It's not going to get you people, and it's certainly not going to get you the right people. You know, the real, the real thing right now is, you know, truly differentiating yourself leading with the positives. And, you know, I know we'll get into this in a second, but really looking at these people looking at these potential employees as investments and learning, how do you meet them? Where they are, right, there's an old marketing term is, you know, you know, meet your prospects, where they are joined the conversation they're having in their brain, which really means is, understand them, perhaps better than they can understand themselves, do your do your research. And, you know, I never knew anything like that. But I think that that's, that's what we all need to do is pause for a second and really understand the type of person that we're looking for, and learn as much about them. And when you're able to do that, you're able to put together what's what's called an employee value proposition, you know, you've we've heard and and we talk marketing, your unique selling proposition, all kinds of different propositions, but this idea of a an EVP and employee value proposition, yes, our job is to seek out and actually sell people on what we have to offer, why they should buy quotes, what we're selling. And it is a different way of looking at it. And for a lot of people, it's uncomfortable, and it's like, I shouldn't have to do that as as some of the things I've heard, you know, I shouldn't have to do that. They should want to work for me, you know, we give the greatest care and, and we're the best at what we do. And we really care about our people and all that it's like, yeah, but so does everybody else.



That's what I was just thinking doesn't everybody?



Yeah, I'm okay. And I know you care just a little bit more than I do about quality care. And I know that I mean, but that's, that's the mindset we come with. What we don't come with is we need to put our best foot forward. And we need to understand these people that we are trying I know we hate the S word. But we are trying to I'll say the P word and said persuade them for coming to interview with us. And then if we liked them, persuade them to commit to working for us. And you know what, when you have the ability to get pretty much any job you want out there, you put a posting out that you got 10 potential offers maybe 20 You're in competition with A lot of other people, and you have to realize that and have to do the work. It's not hard work. But it's focused work to understand more about who you're trying to get than you ever needed to do in the past. So that's kind of the premise of the whole thing. Yeah. Yeah. So



I was gonna say, Is this part of these, like, we mentioned the top kind of simple ways to hire and retain staff, is this part of it? Or is this the background you need to do to get to?



I think, I think it's the background. I mean, if I mean, you could put it in there. But you know, for this for this conversation, I'm kind of setting the stage of, of the background of where people need to be coming from. I mean, the bottom line is, why should they work for you? It's really that simple. Why should they work for you, because they can work for someone else, no matter what you say, one an hour to an hour. But there's, there's already 10 other people doing the same thing. So you know, one of the things that now we're gonna get into the specifics, you know, one of the things we talked about, you know, we need to treat them like an investment. But it goes beyond that, we need to understand number one thing that every owner needs to do is understand what their worth is. I did some research on this. There's a recent Gallup poll. And they said 60% 64% of employees said that a significant increase in income and benefits. Was there number one won't. Now, which is interesting. It wasn't necessarily number one, a little while ago, it was never number one. For many years, it was never even a top five money was not the focus. Well, it is now and you can't blame them. Because let's say education is a fortune. Right? Some people No, in our industry are saying, it's not even worth it. If you look on paper, just money, you invest in education. And when you get it back, you might be in debt for 20 years before you actually pay it off. Depending if you have 234 100,000, you have inflation, it just cost more to live in some of these cities like yours, and mine, it costs a lot to live wow, you know, you adjust for the insurance that you get, if you do take insurance. It's not covering that. So they expect the employer to do that. So this, this question of, you know, what is their worth? I've heard from so many people that say to me, you know, I can't afford that. And I say, Okay, well, what can you afford? Well, I don't know. And there's the problem. You need to know what this person is worth to your company at the level that you want them working. So for instance, I like to use a three multiple and a typical outpatient example. So if you're a typical outpatient, orthopedics, not, you know, insurance based, most likely, but it really depends. And your multiple of salary, not benefits, not taxes, and it just salary. It has to be at least three times, meaning that if you pay someone 75,000, that person should produce 225,000 in revenue, a three multiple it's just a ballpark. Could it be less than a three? It could be? It really depends how what your expenses are like, what's your rent, like?



You know, your other overhead and all that kind of stuff to make sure that you can cover all that and still have money for profit, let's not forget, profit. If it's greater than that, you should be really clear you should be fine. So it's our job to really dial in, what can this person generate? And then use that ballpark three times to determine what you can afford. So this shines a light. Karen and I and I've had some recent conversations with people and analyzing their business is shines a light on people's business models, some people's business models, they have this altruistic will I want to do one patient an hour, I'm like, hey, you know, we don't tell people what your model should be. We just tell you whether it's going to be profitable. And it's going to achieve the goals that you want, especially especially to financial goals. So if you do one patient an hour at $100 a visit, I can tell you right now there is no way you're ever going to be able to afford the people to work for you. That stay with you. It's It's literally impossible, because there's not enough money. Let's say it's one patient an hour that's at the greatest 808 A day Don't eat everyday, which is not going to happen. So let's say it's 30 or 35, you know, a week at 100 bucks 3500, that's 14,000 a month, that's 120 450 $160,000 Eat, you're gonna afford $50,000 therapists. And most people don't look at it like that care. And they go into this. And they look at it in the Yeah, but I want to deliver, you know, quality care one an hour, but they don't they haven't done all the numbers, whether they can actually build a business on that. Now, can they work for themselves and be like you and I were talking about before the show solopreneur? Sure, they can do that, you can just give yourself a job. And you might be able to make some decent money, but that's the job, right? That's just a self employed job. And if that's what you want, that's fine. But if you want to hire people and actually build a business, where gives you freedom, you're going to have to make a decision. But that's, that's so many times where people kind of have the wake up call and be like, oh, man, I need to change kind of how we're doing No wonder I don't have any money in the bank, even though we're 90% utilization. And that's a horrible feeling. When you're working your butt off, everyone's working their butt off, and there's still no money. That's a fundamental flaw. So that's, that's kind of the surprisingly simple way is just get clear on what you can afford. Use the three times as just a guideline and see what a you expect them, how productive do you expect them to be? Is it 80% 85%, whatever visits you want, multiply that by how much you get paid per visit, and just see what that looks like. That's where you need to start, then you can answer the question how much you can afford, you can answer the question what the therapist is worth to your practice, how much they can generate. And at least it gives you more data to know if the person says 80,000, and you never given anybody more than 72 You know what you might be able to afford that. And it might be a really good hire if they're a good fit. So anyways, that's that's kind of a the the number one thing that I'll start with?



Yeah, I think that's great, practical, easy to understand. What's next, what else can we do to hire the right people?



Yeah. So number two is a biggie. And this is, comes to Forbes magazine talks about this, I call it be on purpose, be on purpose. According to Forbes, employees want to work for a company that has a purpose, right. And we have a such a deep purpose. Us as as therapists, caregivers, we are healers. We're healing the world. And sometimes that message gets lost. Sometimes we forget that message about what we're really doing. Sometimes we speak about metrics and productivity, and we lose the message about what we're doing this for. And other times, it's all about the quality of the quality. And we have a business that is in financial instability. So how do we become on purpose? Well, the first thing is we have to get a vision, we have to get a vision as Simon Sinek talked about a vision as a just cause there was an interesting TED talk that he was talking about, or maybe it wasn't a TED talk, it was just a video, but he was talking about having a just cause a vision needs to be your Northstar. A vision needs to be inspiring. And the first person your vision needs to inspire is you. If you're not inspired by envision, like, you know, caring if it's like, what's your vision, you share a vision and you're like, so, you know, how do you feel about there and like, whatever. If you're not inspired, you're not going to share that vision to others. And if you don't have a vision, we'll put in values. Your values don't have to be these company values that you see in whatever commercials and they're on some rock outside the thing. Values are your beliefs. What do you believe in? What do you believe about the work that you do? Why is this work so darn important to you? People want to be connected to something they can get a job working anywhere. So why do they want to work for you? What are you about? What is your story in your business? I share my story a lot I've shared it on on your podcast many many times. And more people come up to me and say oh my god, I resonated with your story. I didn't have a fire and burned down my place but I've had some really difficult times. We are story people we love movies. We love plays. We love dying. Begin to stories. What is it about your business? How did you get started what it means to you, because during an interview, that's what people are going to connect to. That's what's being on purpose. So take some time and write down what your vision is, what your story is, what your values are, what does this mean to you? And use that with your current team, of course. But also you can use that in your interview process.



Yep, I love it. That was a huge part of what I did. You know, maybe two years ago, I was really being intentional and looking at mission, vision and values, and really understanding why I do what I do, why I started my practice, why I decided to go out on my own. And it was really enlightening, and made me appreciate the business that I have so much more. So if if you are a business owner out there, and you haven't, like maybe you've written down like a mission, vision and values A while ago, just to have it on your website, or just to do it, I would suggest go back, revisit it and really think about who you are as a person why you decided to start your practice what is really important to you. Another thing that I talked about at ascend, and that we did in the Goldman Sachs 10,000 small business program was they had us find like a totem. So this totem could be, it could be a phrase, it could be a physical object. It could be a mythical creature, if you will, whatever you want. That encapsulates why you do what you do or encapsulates your vision. And I remember thinking, told them, I don't know what I don't know what that what do I told them? And they're like, yeah, just let it. And then I was like, Oh, of course I do. Because it's been my sort of guidance for, I don't know, 18 years now. So even before I moved to New York City, before I started my practice, I was sort of obsessed with the cathedral by Rodin, which is two right hands coming together. So when you look at it quickly, it looks like a right and a left hand is actually two right hands. So it's two right hands coming together, not touching. So I always looked at that is like therapist and patient coming together with space in the middle to kind of grow and move. But you could take that into you and an employee, it could be you and a partner, but it's coming together, but not fully. But having that space in the middle having space for new things to come. So that was kind of my totem. And I didn't even realize it until I did this went deeper into this process two years ago. So I highly suggest people if you've already done it, do it again.



Yeah, you know it. I love I love your story in a lovely, what you're sharing, you know, I think that as as highly left brain analytical, very smart people. I think sometimes we have a difficult time going deep. Cal Newport, who actually is here in Georgetown universe, Georgetown, you know, talks about deep work going below the superficial. And we have a tough time with that. I don't know if we have a tough time being vulnerable, which I know we do. A lot of people do. But vulnerability is power. That'll be maybe my next talk here. But I you know, we have a tough time of going below the superficial and going into the real deep, where the real work happens. The feelings, the emotions, the connections of why do you do what you do? You don't have to you can do anything you want. Why this? You don't have to start your business. No one forced you to why it's bigger than I didn't like my boss. That's why he started. It's bigger than that. You have to go deeper. And when you do you get such clarity. And because when clarity happens, you get power. You get confidence and you get dialed in. And when you have that kind of focus, that's where magic happens. Because other than that, it's a noisy world and it's easy to get distracted. I mean it's easy to get distracted by everybody else's stuff. So, so important, because here's the thing when you when you are dialed in on your your vision, your story, what who you are I'll tell you what One thing is going to happen, these people are going to come into your world candidates or whatever they're going to know who you are, they're going to know what you're about, they're going to know where you're headed. Now, whether they choose to be a part of it or not, that's their choice. But there's not going to be a confusion about what you're about. And you know what, give me that every day of the week, because what I don't want is there. They're just there. It's kind of like, everybody else, stand for something, draw a line. And it starts by doing that deep work. So that's number two. My next one is, is one of my favorites. It's higher for traits train for skill. I feel as as an industry, that we have become infatuated with advancement. And I don't, and if



you mean all those initials after your name,



well, we'll carry on, let's just say it we've become infatuated with, with with certifications, with initials with with almost to say, Karen, I got 28 initials. Karen, I'm better than you. I'm a good person. I'm a great therapist, because I'm really, really smart. Well, guess what, Karen, you were smart, when you graduated, you're smarter than better than 1%, you know, then the other 99% of the world, you were already smart? How much more do you need for you to look in the mirror and say, You know what, you're good enough. You're okay, because you can't remember 90% of the stuff that you're learning anyways, I don't know where that certification and that more and more is better. I mean, there's definitely a financial part there. Because, of course, people get paid for the more education and there's people that are doing that, that are highly paid. But you know, this idea of the more letters the better all be. Now, here's the problem with hiring with that, because you're like, Jamie, we're gonna how's the connection? The connection is this. Because you can get enamored with a resume with someone that has two things, one, a lot of experience, we love that. And to a lot of initials, because in our head, we've taken that, and I've had people tell me that on so many occasions, well, will they have experience in a ton of certifications? I go, and well, I just assume I go, Yeah, I just hope that they would, I thought that they would what? Well, I just thought that because of that they would just be this amazing person that walked in, and they would do things the way that I would do them. They would just own it. And they would just be amazing. And I said, yeah, no, that's not what makes them amazing. You see, being a professional is not about having all that stuff. It's okay to have it if you want to have it if you want to learn, but you know, what? What are the traits, the characteristics that you're looking for with a person? Whether it's a front desk, whether it's a therapist, whether it's a clinical director? Who are they? Who are you looking for, because that the person that's going to walk in, and that's the person you're gonna get. The other aspects the skill, let's face it, we can train someone for any skill that's out there. There is a course for it. There is of course, a certification for him. There is a continuing ed for which you can't really change who someone is. If they're not a timely person, then they're not a timely person. If they're an introvert, they're an introvert. I mean, if you want an extrovert people person and you hire an introvert with a great resume, you're gonna get an introvert with a great resume. But if you hire someone hungry, if you hire someone that just has the, the, the, the characteristics, the character that you're looking for, who believes in what you're doing, who shares your values, of integrity, of timeliness, of commitment of just doing what's right. Give me that person every day of the week, and I will train them on the other stuff. But Karen, here's where some of the challenges occur. What if you don't actually have a training process?



What if you don't really have a hiring and onboarding process it's kind of some I don't know just something you kind of do. Their lair lies the problem. The real challenge is you don't have that. And if you don't have that you do the hope and pray method. I hope I the worst that kill me is Jamie. I think I hired a rockstar and I go oh boy. Here we go. Because hiring a rockstar is the hope and pray method. In your mind, they're a rockstar because you are hoping that they are because you don't have time to deal with this. Because you need to move on to something else because you are overwhelmed. Give me someone who's passionate about playing the guitar, and I will turn them into a rock star, but a rock star at my place. I don't need a rockstar at someone else's place. Because rarely, if ever, does that convey in someone being that a player at my place. So that's the biggest thing. really sit down, write down what are the characteristics that you want for this position? Are they outgoing? Hi, Quickstart, you know, talk about their emotional intelligence, are they detailed oriented, they follow through communication skills, you know, relational skills, like really get clear again, on the type of person that you want. And if they're not that person, no matter what their resume says, then maybe they might fit another position. But you want to be really careful about bringing them in, because it's an expensive endeavor that you're making. You don't want to make the wrong investment.



Yeah, absolutely. And I think I'm just gonna repeat that one more time. Hire for traits train for skill, just so people have that embedded into their freight train for skill. Yeah, yeah. Excellent. Okay, what's the last one? Last



one, expand your reach? Look, marketing is about awareness. The more you create awareness out in the world, the more opportunities and people come to you, we are in the marketing, of looking for candidates. So we have to use that same mentality, we're trying to find good people, we need to ramp up our efforts. So we need more effort. And we need to expand our reach, we need to explore every channel and open every door that's out there and apply a massive amount of action for a long period of time, this doesn't end we are all Talent scouts, it never ends. As long as you're trying to grow, you're always looking for talent. And if there's a if you find someone, you'll figure out a way to bring them in, because you'll know what they're worth to you. So what are some things you can do LinkedIn, had a friend of mine do LinkedIn strategy, which is basically connect with with people connect with I mean, LinkedIn is a 24 hour, seven day a week networking site, they just connected with people just generally connected with people. And then, you know, said, Hey, by the way, you know, I'm looking for this particular type of person. Do you know of anybody? Would you mind sharing the this as sharing his job description? With your network? I'd really appreciate it. They're like, sure. Now, all of a sudden, he had 567 people 10 people sharing this. Within a week, he had someone in Texas, saying, actually, you know what, I'm just finishing up my rotation, which was kind of weird, because it was at the same place that he actually did a rotation at, you know, some massive sports place in Texas. And the person's he's flying them up for an interview here. I mean, that costs nothing. It costs nothing. So LinkedIn, your staff, if you have a decent staff, they like working there, well guess what their staff there, your staff has a network of people, especially your therapists, give them a referral bonus. Ask them to reach out to their people, you know, great way to network. And we've hired lots of people through people that already worked for us. Your past patients, your contact lists, you know, again, sounds simple. Put it out there, hey, we're growing we're looking for and be specific. We're looking for someone to join our team, someone that has these qualities. If you have to every state has a list you can purchase. Right? I did this several times I purchased a list. It wasn't very expensive. They give you addresses, they don't give you email addresses. It's funny, I can actually go to your home right now, Karen, because you're on that list. I can go to your home in New York. But God forbid I can email you. And you can just you can just say unsubscribe or or just delete me, but I can go to your house. I never really understood that one. But that's the way it is. You can purchase a list, you can send them a letter, hey, put your best foot forward send them a great letter about the position. Are they interested? Do they know someone and guess what? Nobody really gets any good mail anymore. They're going to open up your letter. So that's a little more expensive, but it's still worth it. And of course your network pass candidates students. A longer term approach would be have a student program it is the best way to do a 12 week interview with them. And then you know, you know, obviously there's there's companies out there, there's recruiters out there, definitely a bit more expensive. But if you know what the value is of them of the person that you're going to bring on board, then it might be an investment that's worth it to you. So the key is, if you are a business that's growing, then you can never stop looking for talent. And once you do that, you will start to bring in people quality people, look, most of us aren't these massive companies that need 1020 therapists, one or two people can make all the difference. So let's shift your mind out of the idea that there's nobody out there, there's no good people out there, there are, you don't need a million people, what you need is to get very clear on who you're looking for. And you need to put a massive amount of effort behind it into networks. And I promise you'll find somebody a lot quicker than you think. But don't just put an ad on, indeed, that you got from another person. And think that's all you need to do. It definitely takes a lot more effort these days.



Yeah. All right. So I'm gonna recap. So yes, understanding what would their worth is. So that's that three times, rule. Be on purpose, make sure you have a purpose, be clear on your vision, values and mission. Hire for traits not trained for skill, and finally, expand your reach. So in all great ways, for owners of any business, of course, here, we're sort of talking about physical therapy. But I think great advice for any business owner in this atmosphere that we are currently in, in an economic downturn in a time where it seems like man, I cannot find good talent, right? So it's looking inward at yourself as to what you're putting out into the world and then putting yourself out there to find those right people?



Absolutely. I got a fifth bonus one if you want. Yeah, let's do it. Bonus one here, slow it down. Kind of contrary, to put massive effort, but hear me on this. So the biggest challenge we have right now, as people, especially as business owners, the biggest challenge we have is a lack of focus. If we could just focus on what we wanted to get done, we'd get it done, because we're doers, and we can get things done. But we can't because of all of the distractions that's going on. Well guess what, most people hire out of reaction of something else happening. Either someone quit, or Oh, my God, we have an influx of people. So you're reacting to that. And when you react to something like that, this becomes emotional. And when it becomes emotional, we basically just want to solve the problem and move on because we're overwhelmed. When you slow it down, you slow it down in the form of a process. It's a hiring process. Right? One of the one of the most important things that I learned that I did is have actually a clear step by step process and not miss any of them. Because when I did this before, quick little story, I didn't have a process for a long time. You know, I had an ad and I put it out there, whatever, and I hired people. But when I was interviewing people, I wasn't interviewing them. I was basically trying to sell them to come in, I would literally ask them a question and give them the answers to it. Hey, Karen, you know, our values is integrity and honesty. And, and you know, we like to have fun. Is that is that? Do you believe in that too? I mean, that's an IQ test. All you have to do is say, Yeah, I do. I don't I thought you did. Hey, this is a great place. I'd love to have you would you want to come on board? I'll give you whatever you want. Like, just, I don't have time for this crap. I got other things to do. Let me bring in probably one of the most important people that I'm ever going to hire. This was for a clinical director job that I did a half hour interview and that was it. That was the entire interview process, half hour hire the person. Unfortunately, the person ends up getting arrested six months later. Why? Because let's see person improperly touched a woman during a screening process. Well guess what my board found out in Maryland. And I was called in an investigation and asked 156 questions and learned a lot about HR learned a lot about having processes, learn a lot about having policies and procedures. And then I started doing much more of a background check than I ever did. Oh, I did his check to see if he had a license in Maryland. Oh, guess what? In another state. He was on probation for doing something very similar. But he didn't report it to me which was on him. He was supposed to but I didn't even check right out of the have, you know, I just assumed that his references were good? So it sounds like well, Jamie, you're a moron. Well, maybe so. But what I ended up creating was a very clear step by step process that slowed me down to make sure I did a resume review, and did a checklist on it. I made sure I did a phone interview, knowing what questions to ask, then I did an in person interview, then I did a work interview on a work shadowing, then we did background checks. And then we did, I slowed down everything to a process. Now you can go through the process pretty quickly. But you're still checking the boxes, because it was a protection for the company. You see this person getting arrested and doing this stuff. That's on me that's on the owner. And then I come to find out that he was a little creepy to the rest of the staff, who of course, never told me anything, because I was very high on this person. So having a process and slowing things down is critical. Because once you do that, you then can continue to do that for every person you're hiring. And eventually, you can delegate that. So that's my fifth thing is, is slowing it down and creating a process in this. Yeah,



great advice. That's a crazy story. Holy cow. Oh, yeah. So it definitely behooves you to do a good background check, and really make sure this is the right person for your practice. Wow. All right. So as we wrap things up, what do you want people to leave with?



Well, I mean, look, this, this is not easy, right now in our world. And, you know, I gave you I gave you, you know, five actual things that you can do right now. And, you know, it's, it's hard. And you know, one of the things that I've that I've created during my turmoil as a business owner for 15 years is I created my own process. And I turned that process, actually into a program into a course called the right fit hire course. And I've used it in my own business ended up hiring really great people, you know, quadrupling my business and ended up selling it. And now I've used it with hundreds of other people. And what I'd like to do is I like to offer that to your audience. The courses is normally for 497. But I'd like to offer your audience take $200 off, you know, just just, you know, you'll, you'll you'll put the link up there. But you know, it's, this is going to save you a ton of time, ton of energy. It's already split up into how to, you know, recruit great people attract great people qualify them, what the interview questions are, how to do the checklist, it even adds job description, sample, job description, sample ads, sample offer letters, it has all the done for you templates, I did all of that stuff. It even has an onboarding process, and even a training process. So it goes through all four of those components, how to bring in people how to qualify them, and onboard and train them. So it's, it's 297, you'll see you'll see all the things that includes on there. But that's, you know, I want to help people during this trying time, and it's just something that I've used, and so many other people have used successfully that I think would be very beneficial



to your people. That's incredible. So again, if you're listening, head over to podcast dot healthy, wealthy In the show notes of this episode, we'll have a link. So one click will take you right to this, this is a great opportunity. So if you are in the hiring mind, I highly suggest for you to check out this course from Jamie, thank you so much. Now, Jamie, where can people find you?



Oh, they can find me at Jamie at practice freedom. If you want to email me personally, you can go to the website, which is practice freedom you the letter You can check that out. And yeah, and I'm all over social media, you don't have to look far. And you'll see me all over there. And yeah, if you want to reach out, say hello, feel free to do so.



Perfect. And again, we'll have all those links in the show notes as well. So last question, what advice would you give to your younger self? Now you got to keep coming up with new pieces of advice.



This is the hard part. No, I mean, the pieces of advice is you know, and I think about this more and more. It's like, Jamie, be vulnerable. Be open. One of the books I read, you know talked about being a broken, broken, open heart warrior. Be a broken open heart where we all are broken, we're not perfect, but just open your heart allow the good stuff coming in. There's a lot of great people in the world who want to help you. But it's hard to be helped when you think you know it all and you're closed off and you're and you're just resistance and And I've been like that for so long for so many years and my world changed when I just started to be open and vulnerable and saying, You know what, I don't have all the answers. And that's when so many good things started coming in to my life. And I always try to remind myself when I start to get a little bit of too much ego and remind myself a little bit of, you know, be vulnerable. It's a powerful thing.



Yeah, I love it. That is excellent advice. Jamie, thank you so much for coming back on the podcast. I know this information will help so many people. So thank you so much.



Thank you, Karen. Appreciate being back. Absolutely. And



everyone. Thanks so much for tuning in. Have a great rest of your week and stay healthy, wealthy and smart.

Jul 5, 2022

In this episode, High-Ticket Mentor, Coach, and Founder, Michelle Hext, talks about creating successful high-ticket offers.

Today, Michelle talks about her story from running Martial Arts studios to high-ticket coaching, the reasons why offers don’t sell, and the importance of keeping it real. What counts as a high-ticket offer?

Hear about avoiding market research and analysis, determining your pricing, the pandemic’s effect on business, and get Michelle’s advice to her younger self, all on today’s episode of The Healthy, Wealthy & Smart Podcast.


Key Takeaways

  • “The biggest thing that you can do to avoid competition, just always be 100% yourself.”
  • “They don’t want you to look like every other person on social media. They want you to be you. They want you to be real.”
  • “Go into your bubble, and don’t look left or right. Look within because everything you have is inside of you.”
  • “Usually it’s not about the price, but people think it’s about the price.”
  • “If you have to do the mindset work, something’s not right.”
  • “Become a specialist and focus on one thing.”


More about Michelle Hext

Headshot of Michelle Hext For over 30 years, Michelle Hext has been a mentor, and since she was a child, the business of creating, growing, and scaling high-value products has been a part of her DNA. Michelle has a history of building successful brick-and-mortar businesses and online companies.

Her area of expertise is helping entrepreneurs create high-cost brands. This involves launching, growing, and scaling high-cost offerings. So, her clients can only choose to work with high-end clients who want results.

Michelle’s regular audience is people who want Launch & Scale, a high-ticket coaching brand. She’s trained hundreds of coaches and experts a year with her mentor program. So, Michelle has a pretty good idea of the kind of content they listen to.


Suggested Keywords

Healthy, Wealthy, Smart, Business, Success, Offers, Social Media, Branding, Packaging, Confidence, Monetization,


Special Offer: 5 Days to 5K


To learn more, follow Michelle at:


Facebook:       Michelle Hext

Instagram:       @Michellehext


Subscribe to Healthy, Wealthy & Smart:


Apple Podcasts:




iHeart Radio:     


Read the Full Transcript Here: 


Hey Michelle, welcome to the podcast. I'm happy to have you on. Thanks for joining me.



Thank you so much for having me. I'm happy to be here.



Excellent. And before we get into, I'm sure what a lot of people are tuning into here is, how do we create and sell high ticket offers, which I promise we will get to. But before we do, let's talk a little bit more about you. So tell the listeners a little bit more about how you got to this point of where you are helping coaches and entrepreneurs create, sell and position their business for high ticket offers.



Yeah, so I started, you know, my very first business was back in like, we're going back to the early 90s, the very early 90s. And my first coaching was in the form of martial arts, I owned martial art schools, and along the way, developed a bunch of other things to bring to my skill set. So in 1991, I started instructing Taekwondo, the martial art of Taekwondo. By the mid 90s, I had my own schools. And, you know, you get to a point where you're instructing and teaching people to fight for contact, and grade for a high belt levels, like black belt and things like that. And you know, you're alive as a coach, because a lot of resistance comes up for people. And so I always, am really happy that I had that that early training in coaching about helping people to overcome resistance. Resistance is resistance, it doesn't matter whether it's whether you're going to launch an offer, or whether you're going to go and fight or grade for about, it's all very, very similar. So it really taught me to help extract the best out of people. And it also really taught me that people are very, very different. And you could instruct one person in a certain way or say things to them in a certain way and draw out the best of them. And it would have zero effect on somebody else. So really got a good education in human nature, and how to read people and how to get the best out of people. So I had my martial art schools for a number of years, still trained today. So it's still a very big part of my life, but it's no longer part of my business life. I outgrew the bricks and mortar business model, it just didn't challenge me anymore many, many years ago. And so along the way, I've always been a bit of a natural entrepreneur. So even when I had my martial arts schools Tibo was the thing. And so I decided I was going to create my own Tibo type program. So I called it power. And I had somebody come in and film me. And this was before even DVD. So they recorded them. And I was selling these in martial arts magazines as cassette tapes, like video cassettes with a with a manual, because I wanted to bring that type of workout into martial arts school safely. I wanted them to be able to leverage this new phenomenon, but I wanted them to be able to do it in a way that they felt confident to deliver it. So I created this syllabus and branding and all that sort of stuff and sold that through magazines. And I was always doing different things like that looking for different angles. I became a personal trainer, I as well, to add to my martial arts school, I, I had a full time center and I added a personal training studio was always just looking for ways to increase my bottom line, and to keep myself interested and inspired in the work that I was doing. And in around the 99, I think it was coaching became a thing, it became an actual industry that was making a noise in the US and it filtered its way back to Australia. And I thought, This is what I do anyway. So I'm gonna go ahead and do this. So I went and got myself qualified as a coach. And I've been coaching ever since. So at one point, I had taekwondo school on one side of the street and my business coaching offices on the other side of the street. And I was juggling both and young children and all that sort of stuff. And just over the years, it's been a very I guess I've followed my nose, but the business that I have now, where I work with, you know, high level clients, they invest quite significantly in me because they they want to create some success pretty quickly. And it's all just been an evolution of the same sort of thing. So my first high ticket offer was off of the back of a book that I wrote called The Honorable martial arts entrepreneur. And it taught people how to niche their coaching business, sorry, the martial arts business, how to market it and all those sorts of things. And that was off the back of me launching a women's only martial art school that was very successful.



And then I moved into the female entrepreneur space and launched a 27 and a half $1,000 mastermind, within like four weeks of launching that brand, and had a $200,000 launch, it did really well, it was a lot easier to sell to female entrepreneurs than it was to martial art school owners. And then I've been doing very similar work ever since that was 2014. But I've just really narrowed my niche now to work with coaches and consultants, because they're, they're the people that I had the most impact over and in this industry specialists who want to move into that coaching consulting space. And so now I work with clients from kind of all around the world. My fee these days is 10,000 us a month for four weeks, which is a long stretch from when I first started, I think I was charging 1200 for 12 weeks or something like that. So it's not necessarily been very strategic, it's just I paid attention to when it was time for me to grow and expand into the next kind of level. And I've just done that, without too much fanfare or drama or anything like that. I've just yeah, really just trusted my instincts along the way.



That's quite the evolution of being an entrepreneur, you know, starting with the martial arts studios to where you are now. It's quite a journey. And thanks for sharing that. And I think it also at for me highlights, what one bout of let's say, education or position, you know, as a fifth degree black belt, correct? Yes. So your training as a fifth degree black belt has really spilled over and helped to, I think inform you going forward. And a lot of people who listen to this podcast are physical therapists, their trainers are entrepreneurs. And I think it's so important, like, you don't give away your let's say, in my case, I'm a physical therapist, I can use that physical therapy education, to improve coaching programs, and to inject it into coaching programs, because of the years of experience as a PT, just kind of like what you did as a coach.



Yeah, and nothing is ever wasted. You know, I, I had online fitness businesses as well. And I remember there were women who were coming along and participating in my online fitness programs. And one of them was in my business mentorship program. Last year, we're talking a span of close to 20 years, you know, these women come along and they they participated in my programs, then they became personal trainers, because they were interested in the fitness space. And then they were using me to help them grow their businesses. So it's, yeah, and all of the things that I've learned, whether it's the fitness stuff, whether it's the martial arts stuff, whether it was the taking myself back to school stuff, and never using the course that I enrolled in and, and things like that nothing is ever ever wasted. And I know you're gonna ask me a question about competition, you know, and saturated markets and things like that. And I'm going to kind of segue into that if you're okay with that, oh, for the what, what, I don't believe there is any competition, I don't believe I have competition, I just don't consider that I never have regardless of the business type I was running. And the reason is exactly what I just spoke about, nobody's had the same education experiences, life experiences, or anything else that I have had, nobody is going to have my unique take on things, or my unique approach to the way that I do things and see things and, you know, am I able to take a big picture and simplify it into the, you know, a three point to do list sort of thing, because that's just the way that I've consumed information and processed it and how I you know, all of the different things. And it's the same for any coach, any consultant, you can have, I love to use this, this example. So you can have somebody that is looking for, let's just say a social media coach, right? Say somebody is in the market for a social media coach. And I want you to imagine that there are 20 Social media coaches all lined up sitting at a sitting in a row. And we have 20 people coming along to hire a social, social, social media coach, and they all sit down and it's like speed dating, they get to go and you know, have a conversation with every single social media coach and choose the one that they want. They're not going to pick the same one. Because what's going to come into play is, oh, you've got young kids as well. Oh, I know what a handful that is. Oh, you like martial arts as well. Oh, wow, I trained in martial arts, they're going to connect with the human being and human beings experiences and things like that. And so the biggest thing that you can do to avoid competition is trying to be like everybody else. Just always be 100% yourself and let all of the weirdness and the quirks and, you know, all these parts of you that make you up, be there, you know, I, I would never say, Well, I'm just not talking about martial arts anymore, because that's just not what I do. Like, people remember that I have a fifth degree black belt, you know, it says something about me. It's not relevant to my business these days, but it's something that people will remember. And so yeah, that's my little kind of rant on that.



Yeah, no, I think that's great. And I oftentimes, we don't, we, we feel like revealing too much personal information could be detrimental. But like you said, that's the way someone's going to connect with you. So it's okay to reveal some personal information, some background information, I'm like, obviously, you don't have to give away like your personal medical history if you don't want to. But it's a way that people can make a connection with another human being.



They want you to be real, you know, I have this this phrase that I, I'm writing another book at the moment, and it's what I say something along the lines of, they don't want you to be another instance step by step and printer, you know, where it's like The Stepford Wives sort of thing. They don't want that they don't want you to look like every other person on social media, they want you to be you, they want you to be real. And if we have a look at people like Celeste Barber, the comedian and we have a look at in Australia, we have a woman called Mia free, Friedman, who has she hosts a website called Mamma Mia. And she's always looking like a hot mess. You know, she's doing her live streams, putting makeup on and the washing powder in the background and things like that, you know, people I mean, you've got to choose your market, right? Mike, you're not going to see that in my space, because I'm operating in a you know, a different brand. But people love those women, you know, they love the relatability. And so, you know, we've got to walk that fine line between depending on our brand. But for me, it's like wanting to be aspirational and inspirational, but also keeping it really real. So people understand that, you know, I'm just a regular being like I'm wearing I showed you before, I've got a lovely top on and earrings, and I've got my workout gear on down the bottom. So I can race out and go to the gym. And I don't hide that, you know, I talk about that. And so I want people to understand that sometimes, you know, things look so polished in brands, that they just not people feel like it's not attainable. They feel like it's just an overload overwhelms people. So we want to be able to keep things real.



Yeah, excellent advice. And now let's get into talking about high ticket offers. First question, what is a high ticket offer? What is considered high ticket?



Yeah, so, um, you know, there are all different, I guess, explanations of what a high ticket offer is. For me, there's no magical figure that you crossed, that puts you into high ticket territory. It's very, very much subjective and individual to the person. So I've worked with clients who were charging $100 for a coaching session. And suddenly they have a two and a half 1000 or $5,000 coaching package, that's high ticket for them. I also work with clients like a client recently sold an $85,000, US dollar paid in full upfront coaching package. And that was a 12 month package. Amazing. She's an E commerce coach. But within about two weeks, I messaged her and I said, we've got to cut that back. That's going to be a six month course you can't be doing that for 12 months. And she's like, Yep, cool. But we sometimes play around with timeframes and things like that to get used to charging the higher prices. And for my clients to feel really confident in selling it because the confidence is a big thing. But coming back to the high ticket offer thing. For me a high ticket offer is a price point that feels really big for the for the for the coach putting it out there. And oftentimes for the prospective client as well. It means that you're purchasing or you're selling a premium offer. The client is expecting a premium level of service and because they get that you have the ability to work more closely with those clients, give them more thought time even if you're not with them. And so the results are better. Always. You know, I had a client sign up. I was in Fiji a little while ago. We had our first session on Tuesday. By Thursday, she had sold two coaching packages two days, you know, which is incredible. So she hit her coaching sorry, her revenue goal within two days. That was the monthly revenue goal that we had set up And so yeah, it's giving them the confidence and all of those sorts of things to go out there and know that they've got a rock solid offer that's going to impact people and all that sort of stuff. And then they, they sell.



And I'm sure that you work with your clients, looking at market research, and whatever the niche it is that you're trying to sell this high ticket offer in? Do you know what I mean? So, you don't



know No, no, no, I don't want my clients looking at anybody else. I don't want them doing any research. I don't want them doing anything like that. Because what that does is it distracts them from what is their zone of genius. So it's almost like, if you imagine my, my clients come to me, and they're a glass of perfect water, you know, it's very crystal clear, it's in a clear glass. And then they start to look outside, and they start to get ideas. And every one of those dumb ideas they bring back is like a drop of black ink that goes into the water, you know, and it muddies the waters, and we don't want that. So it's my job, whether it's one on one or through my programs or whatever to help them extract what is unique and special about them that they can deliver into the market. And then we you know, we shape it into a monetize product. But I want them to get clear about what are they love to do? Where do they have the greatest level of impact? Where can they produce the best type of results? What's the work that feels effortless to them? And then the biggest hurdle, the resistance is helping them to understand that that is enough. You know, because typically, they want to add bells and whistles or go learn something or something like that, but they don't need to. Right. So if we look at, for example, your physical therapist, you've created a an incredibly successful practice. Or maybe it's you've created an incredibly successful podcast in this space. And so if you said to me, you know, I want to, I want to teach this, I want to work with clients so that they can do this as well. I'm not going to send you to do right market research, hell no. I'm going to say, Okay, let's figure out, you know, all know, if there's, if it's the offer makes sense or not. Or if there's a market for it or anything like that. And I will tell you straight away, no, that won't work, or no. Like, I've seen that before it doesn't work or whatever it is, but I'm going to help you figure out how we get to harness what you have. How you would do it. And then yeah, create a way to monetize it.



Yeah, so you don't get into that wheel of like analysis paralysis, right? Where it's just or worse, comparing yourself to others and then get, then maybe you might run the risk of giving up 100%. So



my client that sold two packages within two days, she would never have done that. If she went around and tried to figure out how other people are doing it. And then getting into this comparison itis because somebody's website's prettier. You know, it's like, no, that's not what we want to be doing. So yeah, my advice to your listeners is go into your bubble, and don't look left or right, like look within because everything, everything you have is inside of you. And if you don't know how to get it out of you, in a way that makes sense in a way to package it. That's when you get help but, but ensure that you you find somebody that's going to help you pull out the best of you not say, Hey, I've got this system, let's just mold you to fit this system over here. We don't want that.



And, you know, I was gonna go into sort of five reasons why your coaching offer or your high ticket offer isn't selling, I feel like we might have gotten number one, I think we might have one that we just talked about. Right? Is not looking out and looking towards everyone else.



Yeah. So there are a number of reasons, right? So the first reason is, it's not clear. So they're not clear about what it is that they're actually selling. And the content, whether it's a sales page, whether it's an email, or whatever it is, it's not giving enough detail about what this is about. So we can get in our own head, right? Because we know what we do. We know exactly. And so if we take shortcuts on the explanation, people will miss the point. Another reason people aren't putting enough of themselves on the line. So what I mean by that is you've got to go on, make a big promise and then just back yourself that you're going to be able to back up that promise you're going to be able to deliver it. And so one of my programs is called the for 5k formula for coaches, I first launched this in about 2016, or 2017. It used to be a $5,000 coaching package, four week coaching package. And the way that I sold it is create and sell your first $5,000 offer in four weeks or less. And 90% of the people did, some people didn't, but like, that's the industry we're in, nobody has 100% success rate. And so people were buying that I couldn't keep up with the demand, I had to leverage it as a group program. After that, I couldn't keep up with the demand, because the promise was really frickin clear. Pay me $5,000, I'm going to show you how to make you know, at least that in the first month, most people saw between two and four packages. And like, that's a no brainer, right? It's a no brainer for people to do that. But if I said to them, Hey, you know, I'm gonna teach you how to price and package and position your offer over four weeks, like it's kind of compelling. But it's like they want to sell it like what they want, ultimately, is to make money, they want to be selling this thing. And so for me, that's the big promise, I'm going to show you how to, I'm going to show you where to find that first client and make that first sale. And so a lot of times that that big promise isn't anywhere near compelling enough.



Yeah, got it. So not enough detail of what it's about which I you know, I've seen so many times I'll be on I'm like, What is this? I don't yet, it's just you know, it's the sales page that keeps scrolling and scrolling. And you're like, I don't know what's happening here.



So even if people have spent money on copywriting, the copywriter hasn't got the instruction that you've given them about what this is what this isn't, this is what people get when they do it. Like they're gonna wishy washy it all over the place and have beautiful language, but nobody still has a clue what it is



no clue. Not enough. So not delivering on the promise. Right? So making them not miss making the promise.



Yeah, right.



What else? What are some other reasons why your offer isn't selling?



Usually, it's not about the price, but people think it's about the price. So they'll tell themselves things like, Oh, I think I should charge less for this. And then it still doesn't sell. And it's because of another reason. It's because it's not clear. Or it's because you're not confident in your ability to deliver the offer. And the energy is a little bit funky. And you might be saying one thing, but if all your energy is saying something else, and people pick that up on the internet very, very easily. Yeah, why else be because they're not asking for the sale. It's like, they're creating content to Wazoo all over the place. And they just expecting that people are going to make the the leap from Oh, she's telling me this nice thing that's very useful. Oh, let me go find out if I can work with her. And if there's a way to work with it, and that doesn't happen, right? We're busy, we're scrolling. We've got to stop the scroll. We've got to engage people with our content. But then we've got to say, go buy this thing. Go buy this thing or jump on this call or whatever it is. So yeah, no call to action. There just isn't a call to action.



Yeah, yeah. And circling back to having this funky energy or, you know, not feeling confident. So, in my mind, I think mindset issues. So how do you work with your clients, when they're in that mindset mind set of maybe not being confident and feeling bad about charging money for their services? I'm sure you've heard that in the past.



Yeah, yeah. So I'm just gonna add one more thing, and then I'll jump on to that. The other thing is the sales process. So I saw an offer the other day, and it was like $5,000, for four weeks or something like that. And it was a Facebook ad ran directly to a sales page and a Buy Now button. And it's like, people don't buy like that, like, you know, give them a you know, warm them up with a lead magnet or some sort of content, have a on the on the sales page, have a, you know, book a discovery call, or, you know, message me to find out more or something like that. But it's like that sales process is screwed up. And it doesn't make sense. So the higher the offer, the more usually time you're going to have to spend letting people know especially if you're dealing with cold traffic, warm traffic is different. But a lot of people are trying to point $5,000 sales pages at cold traffic, and it really doesn't work. You're just wasting money. So that's that. And when it comes to the mindset stuff, and you were asking me, so if a client, you know, they're not confident and all that sort of stuff. My clients don't pass go unless they're confident. So there's a reason and it's just because I've been doing this such a long time and I see it so so we've got a client and we've got a package So the one that sold to in within 48 hours, like we could have gone with a $5,000 offer, because that's typically where I start my clients. And she's like, oh, yeah, it's definitely worth 5000. I'm like, I'm not convinced that you're convinced. And I said, How do you feel about just selling the first two for two and a half and just get some sales in? And then we can put the price up? She was like, yep. So she went and sold it. Like, it was like nothing, right? And so sometimes I want to manipulate it so that if they feel like 5000, like, I can do it, I can do it. Yes, I believe it. But it's like, I know, they're gonna have to labor emotionally, and do you know, get themselves riled up to be able to go and do that price? Whereas when I create a $5,000 package, and they're all in with the $5,000? And I say, how about we knock a couple of 1000 off, and you just get some quick sales? They're like, Oh, yeah, I can do that. Because it's not the price. It's the, it's the confidence around the deliverability. And sometimes, if this is the first time you've sold this package, you're going to be telling yourself things like, what if I can't get a result, and I always say to my clients, well, I can put that fear to bed right away, because there are going to be clients that don't get results. That's just the industry we're in. So you're gonna have people who don't get results. So we're gonna stop worrying about that. As long as you can put your hand on your heart and know that you did everything that you could to provide the right framework and to provide the right support to get people help you, you can charge that price, and you can make that offer. So yeah, well, we're sorry, what was your



question? Yeah, that was that was the question. You're talking about mindset? And, and what do you do? If you you're Yeah, you know, you don't want to charge or your Oh, so hesitant?



Yeah. So I guess it's a combination of mindset work, and practical work, right. So sometimes it is more mindset, where it's just like, you know, I feel really, you know, I feel a bit like awkward about reaching out or during discovery calls and like, well, let's not do on like that. Like, I can make use journal and like, you know, try to get your head right for the next week over this, or we just change it so that you feel good about it. And so they might say, oh, yeah, okay, well, I don't want to do this. And I'm like, Okay, well, how else can we do it? And so oftentimes, the resistance, I think this is really important. The resistance and the mindset work. If you're having to do the mindset work, here it is, if you have to do the mindset work, something's not right. It means you're not confident on some level, you don't feel confident in the sales process, you don't feel confident in your offer, you don't feel confident in your messaging. So figure it out. Because 100% confidence will tell you that you've got you're on the right track. And don't be okay with 70%. You know, do the work to get clarity on your offer and to feel really good about it.



Yeah, excellent advice. And here's another question, when do you raise your price? Right? So I'd say okay, I'm really confident, I've got an offer at $2,500. And I had this offer up for six months, people are purchasing it. When do you say okay, I think it's time let's raise it to 35, or four or five, whatever it may be.



Yeah. And so, with regards to my client that I said, let's just go sell a couple, like, the next one will be maybe three and a half, maybe four and a half before we get her up to five, unless she's fully ready. So for me, that's part of my strategy, and she's just going to run with it. But if it was, like me, personally, so back when I was charging 5000 US a month and selling the 5k formula, when people were selling two, three, and for these packages, it's like, I feel like I'm being ripped off charging people $5,000 When they're making this, and then they're gonna continue to make it, you know, they're gonna 20 $30,000 months. It's like, that doesn't feel like enough. So I put my price up to seven and a half. And yeah, and then so my client recently that sold that $85,000 package, I'm looking at my $10,000 a month fee, and I'm thinking it's about time to put it up. So, yeah, I want to get a handful of like, super, super, super high end, ridiculous results, because then that's the same philosophy. I apply to my clients. I want to feel confident, it's like, I know, I'm gonna give them 100 grand, I know they're gonna get 100 grand back in the first couple of months of working with me, so I feel okay about charging 20,000 a month. Yeah,



got it. Got it. So it's sort of based on what results are you getting for your clients and your How comfortable are you moving to the next level? Yeah, for math. So yeah, yeah, got it. And now over the past two years, obviously we are we have lived through the COVID 19. pandemic, we are still in it in most parts of the world. I don't know where Australia is at the moment, but here in the United States, we are still in the thick of it for sure. So how do you think that COVID has changed the online? Offer space? Right? Because you had a lot of people moving online.



Yeah, it was incredible. It was like the early days of the Internet was amazing. So you know, I, I've had a lot of people following me for many, many years and had a lot of people that were not reliant on online, who suddenly had to be like this whole online thing you've been talking about, you know, can we have a conversation, so my business definitely picked up, it was easier to sell anything. There are just a lot more people online. And it was easier for me to, or it was easy for me to attract more clients and feel more programs and things like that. But it was equally as easy for my clients were doing new launches, you know, they weren't launching themselves for the first time, because they had eyes on them. It seems it's settled back down to not quite pre COVID. There's still a lot more people online and a lot more people wanting to move their businesses online, or be, you know, all online now and things like that. But definitely it created, it created a massive boom. And the other thing was, you know, the ads were a lot cheaper. The traffic was a lot cheaper, too, because people just stopped. So yeah, it was it was a great time, business wise, for sure.



And we sort of touched upon this earlier in the interview. But do you think because of that things have gotten overly saturated?



I don't believe in saturation, I really don't. And I look at the amount of people that move into coaching every year. I don't know what the numbers are. But there's hundreds and hundreds of 1000s of people that are coming into the coaching space. Many, many, many, and you know, there are going to be a lot of coaches out there who fail are going to be a lot of them, you know, but they're going to try and they're going to be needing services. And they're going to need coaching and mentoring and things like that. But yeah, I just don't, but I don't believe in saturation for the reasons that I spoke about before. Like, I'm a business, essentially, I'm a business coach, Online Business Coach, but there's not a lot of people that can compare to the way that I do things. Because there's only one me and people will you know, there are business coaches out there who are focused on lots of different things, right. So there would be business coach, as you spoke about earlier, yes, you've got a business coach is going to send you out there to do market research, and all of those sorts sorts of things. And there are going to be clients who are very attracted to that, because they want that information. And that data to make decisions on my people are not those people. My people are very, they feel their way into decisions. You know, they trust their instincts and things like that. And so those people are never going to be attracted to me in the way that I do things that would freak them out. So yeah, it's, there's always going to be people for your market. So rather than thinking of saturation, think about okay, I own a corner of the internet. This is my show, how do I show up on my corner of the internet, with my people on the internet in a way that helps them to pull the trigger on reaching out on whatever it is like, show up, share your message be consistent about the message. I just had to kick a client's but this morning because I'm like, Who are you? And what are you doing? Like two weeks ago, we were this? Like, we need to get back to you know, focusing on this, this? And so give things time. So work out what do you want to be an if you want to be an influential leader in a space, what is your space? What is the message? What are the things that you're saying? Who are your people get clear about all that and show up for those people? And they will come?



Yeah, yeah, yeah. Perfect. And you know, we do the same thing in physical therapy. Right? And we kind of use a lot now in physical therapy. People are niching down. So you're, you know, you work specifically in sports or pediatrics or pelvic health and people come?



Yes. Yeah. I've had three hip surgeries. I'm not going to anybody who doesn't specialize in hip rehab, just aren't doing.



Sure. Yeah, absolutely. Now, before we begin to wrap things up, is there anything we missed any points that you want the listeners to to to drill into their brains when it comes to crafting and selling these high ticket offers.



Yeah, I think the first thing that the timing I think is the thing. So if we talk about the steps, the first thing that you want to do is get clear on like, what is your zone of genius? What is your skill set that we can monetize. Then, from there, create a package that you feel excited about, you feel like it's well priced, you've made your big promise, like spend the time developing the offer concept, until you feel really good about it, and then start talking about it. So don't be showing up on social media and all over the place, sharing a wishy washy washy message with no call to action, and people don't really know what you do. Be clear about, okay, I am the face of this, this is who I am, this is the space that I'm leading now and show up there, then you can talk talking about your offer is very, very easy. So you know, right now I've got a pricing and packaging challenge that's going to come up in a few weeks. And so all I'm going to be talking about is how important pricing and packaging is. You know, that's all I'm going to be talking about. So if you're a social media coach, and you specialize in tick tock, don't talk about other things. If you're an E commerce coach, and you only work on Shopify, don't be talking about other things become the Shopify specialists, be the specialist in the space and keep your messaging narrow, so that people know Oh, that's that person that does that. And 100 people in your space might not need you, but one will. And if you're a high ticket coach, you don't need very many clients to make a lot of money. So forget about having hundreds of 1000s of followers, focus on you know, the 10 that you've got, because your your first client is going to be there. And then build from there.



And love it. So get clear on your zone of genius. Create the package, talk about it all the time. Don't be afraid. And really focus on the audience that you have. Yes. Perfect. All right. Well, that's great. So listen, where can people find you? What do you have coming up? You just mentioned a pricing and packaging challenge. So please tell us all about it and when it starts, and how can people find



you? Sure. So you can find me on Instagram. So I met my name, Michelle hEXt. My website is Michelle headstock calm. And the challenge is it's your 5k, offering five days, create your signature high ticket offer in less than a week. And it starts on the 21st of July. It's going to be it's $97. So it's just a taster program. And over five days, I'm going to be helping people to unpack all of those different bits and pieces so that by the end, even on day five, I talk about building out your digital assets and things like that, like how to sell it how to onboard. So we're going to start with broadly what is your sweet spot uncovering that, we're going to be covering things like building out your offer framework. So the six, the success pathway your clients will take, we do this first, then we do this, then we do this. I'm going to be talking about copywriting and sales page concepts. And so it's very practical. We're going to start from, like the mind set stuff. And then we're going to work all our way down to being really free. Yes, which is Get ready to make that first sale. And we'll do that over five days, and I can't wait to launch it.



Sounds amazing. And I think I may take you up on that. That challenge. So again, that starts on the first of July. And we'll have links Sorry, sorry, 21st 21st of July. And again, we'll have links to all of it in the show notes over at podcast at healthy, wealthy So if you didn't write it all down, just go to the website, and it will have everything on there. Now, last question, it's a question I asked everyone knowing where you are now in your life and in your career, what advice would you give to your younger self?



I would have focused on one thing instead of 27. Like figured out like what is my one thing, and then I would have taken it all the way because when I did that, that's when everything turned around for me when I was trying to juggle too many things. And I had 75 Facebook pages and 75 accompanying Facebook groups and you know, all that sort of stuff. I was very busy and I was making money but I was exhausted and I wasn't a specialist in anything. So figure out you know, become a specialist and focus on the one thing, take it all the way nothing bad will ever come from that because when I did that with the honourable martial arts entrepreneur, I had my first $30,000 a day it was a it was a massive jump up from what I'd been doing. And then when I went to do it next time with another brand I had called The Art of kicking us elegantly. It was faster, you know, because they'd already done it. And I'd learn. So focusing on one thing is, what is my offer? How am I going to sell it? What is the marketing? What is the lead magnet? You know, I just built that system and took it as far as I could take it until it was time to pivot. And then I knew how to do it. Just change the branding and things like that. So yeah, focus on one thing, take it all the way, don't quit, just keep going. Because you know that that image we see where the the man's like got the Pekinese in the cave and they miss it by just an inch. You never know how close you are. So my rule of thumb is give it your full commitment for 12 months. And don't waver, just figure it out. If you love your offer, and it's not selling, figure out why it's not selling, if it's selling, but it's not selling enough thinking, Okay, how do I get more people to buy it, be thinking about how you can make this bigger, better, stronger and more successful? Not this isn't working, I need to try something else. Like be committed, if you know the offer is solid. And you know, you're good at what you do. Stick with it until you get where you want it to be. Because it is just a matter of time.



I think that is great advice. And I think another takeaway for me, as you were saying all that it's okay to pivot your offer. It's okay to have a different offer. And once you've got the framework in place, it's a little plug and play, right. But it's like you don't have to go to the grave with just one offer.



No, no, no, no. But you've got to make you've got to know how to make that one offer work. And we've got to know how to make that one offer work and be profitable before we start to scale it or bring other products on board. Yeah,



yeah. Yeah. What great advice. Well, Michelle, thank you so much. This was great. There, I took so many notes so much so much for the audience to dig there. dig their heels into here and and really, hopefully start to make a change. Because I know a lot of people that listen to this podcast are in this world of trying to figure out how to make their mark in the digital world. And, but but not only that, really find a, an offer that's unique to them that can help others. And that's where I think a lot of people that listen like they just you just want to help other people succeed.



Yeah, and it's creating that win win, you know, so you're winning, you're signing clients, and they're winning because they're getting the result that they need. For sure.



Exactly. So going in with a win win attitude is everything. And so with that being said, thank you so much for joining me today, and I'm excited for your pricing and packaging challenge. So thank you so much for sharing that.



You are very welcome. Thank you so much for having me.



And everyone. Thanks so much for listening, have a great couple of days and stay healthy, wealthy and smart.