Healthy Wealthy & Smart

Healthy Wealthy & Smart: Where Healthcare Meets Business. The Healthy Wealthy & Smart podcast, hosted by world-renowned physical therapist Dr. Karen Litzy, offers a wealth of knowledge and expertise to help healthcare and fitness professionals take their careers to the next level. With its perfect blend of clinical skills and business acumen, this podcast is a one-stop-shop for anyone looking to gain a competitive edge in today's rapidly evolving healthcare landscape. Dr. Litzy's dynamic approach to hosting combines practical clinical insights with expert business advice, making the Healthy Wealthy & Smart podcast the go-to resource for ambitious professionals seeking to excel in their fields. Each episode features a thought-provoking conversation with a leading industry expert, offering listeners unique insights and actionable strategies to optimize their practices and boost their bottom line. Whether you're a seasoned healthcare professional looking to expand your skill set, or an up-and-coming fitness expert seeking to establish your brand, the Healthy Wealthy & Smart podcast has something for everyone. From expert advice on marketing and branding to in-depth discussions on the latest clinical research and techniques, this podcast is your essential guide to achieving success in today's competitive healthcare landscape. So if you're ready to take your career to the next level, tune in to the Healthy Wealthy & Smart podcast with Dr. Karen Litzy and discover the insights, strategies, and inspiration you need to thrive in today's fast-paced world of healthcare and fitness.
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May 27, 2020

On this episode of the Healthy, Wealthy and Smart Podcast, Jenna Kantor guests hosts and interviews Stephanie Weyrauch on advocacy mentorship.  An active member of the national physical therapy community, Stephanie has served on multiple national task forces for the American Physical Therapy Association (APTA) and actively lobbies for healthcare policy issues at the local, state, and national levels of government. Stephanie is a nationally sought after speaker and consultant for topics on social media use, generational issues, and organizational membership.

In this episode, we discuss:

-Why you need an advocacy mentor to help guide you through healthcare policy

-The benefits of being a mentor

-The key to having successful advocacy efforts

-And so much more!


Stephanie Weyrauch Instagram

Stephanie Weyrauch Twitter

Stephanie Weyrauch Facebook



A big thank you to Net Health for sponsoring this episode!  Learn more about the Redoc Patient Portal here.


For more information on Stephanie:

An active member of the national physical therapy community, Stephanie has served on multiple national task forces for the American Physical Therapy Association (APTA) and actively lobbies for healthcare policy issues at the local, state, and national levels of government. Stephanie is a nationally sought after speaker and consultant for topics on social media use, generational issues, and organizational membership. Stephanie serves as the Vice President for the Connecticut Physical Therapy Association. She is also the co-host for The Healthcare Education Transformation Podcast, which focuses on innovations in healthcare education and delivery.


Stephanie is a Passionate Chicago Cubs fan who enjoys playing the saxophone, writing and weightlifting in her spare time. During business and leisure travels, she is always up for exploring local foodie and coffee destinations.


For more information on Jenna:

Jenna Kantor (co-founder) is a bubbly and energetic girl who was born and raised in Petaluma, California. Growing up, she trained and performed ballet throughout the United States. After earning a BA in Dance and Drama at the University of California, Irvine, she worked professionally in musical theatre for 15+ years with tours, regional theatres, & overseas ( until she found herself ready to move onto a new chapter in her life – a career in Physical Therapy. Jenna is currently in her 3rd year at Columbia University’s Physical Therapy Program. She is also a co-founder of the podcast, “Physiotherapy Performance Perspectives,” has an evidence-based monthly youtube series titled “Injury Prevention for Dancers,” is a NY SSIG Co-Founder, NYPTA Student Conclave 2017 Development Team, works with the NYPTA Greater New York Legislative Task Force and is the NYPTA Public Policy Committee Student Liaison. Jenna aspires to be a physical therapist for amateur and professional performers to help ensure long, healthy careers. To learn more, please check out her website:


Read the full transcript below:

Jenna Kantor (00:03):

Hello. Hello. Hello, this is Jenna Kantor. I'm here with Stephanie Weyrauch. You guys probably know. I mean she's not any stranger to this podcast. How many podcasts have you done on this specific one? I wish I could say third time as a charm as we go. But I wanted to bring on the good old Stephanie Weyrauch however you want to refer to her. Or you could be like, hello, master or master, whatever you prefer. I'm going to bring on Stephanie today because she's actually my advocacy mentor. And I wanted to bring her on to talk about this because I don't think people realize this can be a thing. And so I'm like you want to come on, she's all, yo, let's do it. So this is where we are. And I wanted to open this up, especially to any student physical therapist grads who are looking to get more involved with the APTA and just don't get that guidance from someone that they trust and who believes in that. So Stephanie, why do you think I wanted to work with you?

Stephanie Weyrauch (01:21):

I think that to do with the women in PT summit. I mean I know that, I remember the first time that we met Jenna, we were at the women in PT summit. I had seen a lot of your videos on social media and you and I were friends in social media and so I remember I came up to you and I said, Oh, you're going to at four. And you said, Oh my God, you've seen my stuff. That's so cool. Sort of talking and I think you based off of your interest in advocacy and based off of, I think you knowing that I was involved in advocacy, we just started talking about it and I think that that's just how the hell, it was a really organic thing. It wasn't anything that was really formal. It was just like, Hey, we have this common interest. We know we both enjoy. I mean we both are passionate about the profession and I think that's kind of what led you to me.

Jenna Kantor (02:12):

Yeah. It's funny to say it's not horrible, but to be, I remember when I asked you, I felt like I was asking you to be my girlfriend. Will you? Will you be my advocacy is a big deal. I think this is important to bring up as somebody who's really watched to continue my involvement with the APTA making changes that I foresee that will be so great for its growth. I really wanted to bring this up because it's necessarily easy to find the right person. I think of it as dating. At the end of the day, there's a lot of people who will give you tidbits, but for somebody like you or I can say, Hey, I need to talk to, they'll be available to talk to like brainstorm or whatever, or even if it's just a hard time, get through a Rocky space. Just brainstorming, but that's extremely valuable. A lot of physical therapists who are involved, they don't necessarily believe in beyond that level where I feel comfortable to be open.

Stephanie Weyrauch (03:23):

Yeah, I mean I think that, you know, you make a really good point about finding the right person because you know, while people say that you can go up to anybody and say, Hey, will you mentor me? I mean you really have to build that relationship, which is what advocacy is all about, right? I have been a really good advocate. It's all about building relationships and so finding that person that you can be yourself around yet that person is going to be honest enough with you to tell them you know, the things that you either need to improve on. Be that critical feedback, but also give you that positive feedback to reinforce that you're doing the things and finding that balance. So I think that you make a good point about making sure that you're finding the right person. And my advice to people is if you are interested in finding an advocacy mentor, just a mentor in general, try to foster that connection. That relationship is really important.

Jenna Kantor (04:27):

I remember it was a process for me because now they know what they're doing. They have what I want and everything, but I didn't feel a hundred percent and I think that is something we forget. You just think they're amazing, but how do they make you feel about yourself when you're with them? Do they make you feel good? I've had conversations with you where you've started to get me, you know, you're like, I think this, and I said our walls, that's not where you want. It may have been with the step never on me. Things that were my specific goals and values about within myself. It's been very helpful finding someone who I can be me all the way, which is a challenge.

Stephanie Weyrauch (05:28):

And I think that that's an important thing for mentors is that creating a mini, you're creating a person who is their own individual person and has attributes that they can bring to the table to make them strong advocate or you know, whatever the mentorship relationship is about, you're just moving them along. I always think that, you know, being a mentor is even cooler than accomplishing something yourself because the mentee accomplishes something in that route. And you foster that accomplishment by, you know, facilitating their growth and making sure that they're connected with the right people. I mean, that's just as rewarding and if not even more, all the extra people that you get to touch in addition to, you know, your own personal development as an advocate in your own personal development as a leader. So I think that, you know, it's something that not only helps you as the individual mentee, but you as the mentor, it allows you to have a larger reach and what you will have just in your little bubble who in your own advocacy thing.

Jenna Kantor (06:44):

Yeah, that's true. That's really, really true. And it's not easy because like you mentioned earlier, there are people who many people say, Oh yeah, I just spoke to anyone. So you have to make a decision for yourself. Are you good with getting snippets of people and having a law or would you want someone that's going to be viable for you, devoted to investing time, give you that advice and guidance? There's no wrong answer to that. I discovered that I needed only one. Stephanie became Michael B wonder what would be a Harry Potter reference.

Stephanie Weyrauch (07:30):

So I mean, Elvis stumbled or of course not Baltimore. Baltimore does not. Definitely not. No way. Don't compare me to Baltimore compared me to the more. I think that that's another thing about mentorship that can be challenging is the time commitment. And you're right, you can have multiple mentors that you know, don't really need, that you don't really need to spend a lot of time with. But again, if that mentor is really into facilitating your growth, they're going to be, it's going to be okay that they're going to invest time. And you know, it may not be like a one hour weekly phone call when you see them. Like they're going to want to spend two hours. You can just catch up and see how you're doing. Or they'll text you or email you back and forth. And those are the men. Those are the relationships that are built on, that are built on exactly what you said, relationship. It's not just built on a normal face to face. I mean somebody that you barely know, this is something that you've cultivated, watered, and now the seeds are growing in the beautiful tree is starting to really fester to help kind of bring about that relationship that's needed to have that effective mentor help you.

Jenna Kantor (08:57):

I'm realizing we're making an assumption here. So let's answer the question. Why is it good? Why is it beneficial to have?

Stephanie Weyrauch (09:04):

I think that the benefit for it is because it helps you prep, it prevents you from making mistakes that most people make. And when I think one of the best things about having a mentor, you grow and become better, faster than maybe somebody who had to figure out along the way. Granted there's been multiple people along in the history of time who've been able to figure out their own way, but potentially they could have burned some bridges along the way. They could have had some set backs, they may have missed opportunity. And if there's one thing we know about advocacy, it's all about opportunity. And it's all about presenting your argument in the right way, at the right time for the right things that are going on. And so understanding that and understanding that, especially in today's very polarized political environment, making sure that you are approaching these issues in a way that is proper and in a way that's going to be effective. Because ultimately when you're advocating, you're advocating for your patients, you might be advocating a little bit through your profession, but in general, when you advocate, you make sure that people are getting great care. And right now our healthcare policy is very polarizing. There's lots of different opinions about it. And if you are with the right person and they're guiding you the right way, you're going to go about it in a way that's not going to be as potentially detrimental to the message that you want to send.

Jenna Kantor (10:45):

Yeah. And you're hitting on lots of great. Just like anything, any relationship that relationships, and I'm going to sum it up with a word. You could get blacklist, you can't, it's not like there's a horrible place. Nobody that made no, ain't nobody got time for that. But if you're a person who's constantly coming out like a douche, you're not going to want to know you. Just like you make me feel like crap. That's a thing. So to get, and it's even if you think you are doing something, you never really realize. If you might be cutting down on someone who was put in a lot of hard work, a lot of hard work for zero reimbursement for the profession and that has to be considered even if you completely disagree with it.

Stephanie Weyrauch (11:40):

Right. Well and advocacy takes a long time too. I mean, it's not something that you can go to one meeting and all of a sudden now you have a law passed. I mean it takes 10 it can take up to 20 years as we saw with the Medicare therapy cap to have something actually happen. And that's like a long history of that's like a, Oh that's a history in itself. 20 years. I mean I'm only 30 years old. That means that when I was 10 stuff was going on that I don't even wouldn't even know about. And if I don't have that historical knowledge and that historical information, how can I be an effective advocate? So by having a mentor who knows that history and can help guide you along some of those talking points that you have, because either you don't know the history, you're too young to know the history or you just aren't as familiar with the talking points themselves. You have that person there can give you that. And then when you go to advocate, you have that much more credibility. If there's anything that is really important in advocacy, it's first off, it's credibility and second off it's relationships. What type of relationship have you built with that person? Because if you're a credible person and you have a relationship with them, the chances of them actually listening to you when that app comes, who's a lot better than you're just random person that has no credibility, right?

Jenna Kantor (13:09):

Does natural delight is the things that I personally want to change just for voices, lesser known voices too. That's my own little personal agenda is the important part of this podcast. Very important part. Very, important part of advocacy. Advocate for lameness. So after answering, why do you have to, is it a must in order to achieve what you want within the physical therapy profession? Advocacy wise?

Stephanie Weyrauch (13:50):

I mean I would say yes because I don't know how many of our listeners are experts in healthcare policy, but my guess is that there's not a ton that are experts in health care policy and if you are an expert in health policy, my guess is that you've had a lot of mentorship along the way. I know for me, I mean healthcare policy changes daily and for me, how I have learned has been from being by people who I would consider our healthcare policy experts in addition to them giving me resources that I can use so that I myself can become a health care policy, not to mention really keep emotion out of politics and that is path of what advocacy is, is trying to present a logical argument that isn't based off of emotion, was based off of somebody else's emotion. That's going to further the policy agenda that you're trying to advocate for. And I think one of the hardest parts about advocacy, personal emotion out of the picture.

Stephanie Weyrauch (15:10):

You're there to advocate for your patients. You're not there to advocate for yourself in the end. It doesn't really matter what you believe, it matters what is needed for your patients. And so having just a mentor there to guide you through some of those, that emotional roller coaster of politics and emotion, individual politics with societal politics I think is an essential part of being an effective healthcare advocate. Additionally, there's so much information and having somebody there to help you kind of focus that information and help you figure out what you need to learn and what you can focus on is also really important. I would say yes. Having a mentor is extremely important.

Jenna Kantor (16:02):

I love that and on that note person who has been on this podcast now for this is four times. How can people find you if they haven't listened to you?

Stephanie Weyrauch (16:20):

So you can find me on Twitter. My Twitter handle is @TheSteph21 I'm on Facebook and Instagram. You can find me there or if you want to email me, you can email me but I would say the best way to reach out to me is probably Twitter.

Jenna Kantor (16:48):

Tweet, tweet, tweet, tweet, tweet. Well, thank you so much Stephanie, for coming on. It's a joy to share your expertise, to share you with others. Even though I want to claim you all.

Stephanie Weyrauch (17:04):

Thank you for the wonderful opportunity to come on. I'm healthy, wealthy, and smart. Well, once again, and of course it's always great to chat with you about something that I really love. Advocacy.

Jenna Kantor (17:16):

Heck yeah, me too.


Thanks for listening and subscribing to the podcast! Make sure to connect with me on twitter, instagram  and facebook to stay updated on all of the latest!  Show your support for the show by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts!

May 19, 2020

On this episode of the Healthy, Wealthy and Smart Podcast, Jenna Kantor guests hosts and interviews Andrew Ball on rehab after COVID-19.  Dr. Andrew Ball is a board certified orthopaedic physical therapist with nearly 20 years experience in physical therapy. Drew has earned numerous advanced degrees including an MBA/PhD in Healthcare Management, and post-professional DPT from MGH Institute of Health Professions. He has completed a post-graduate fellowship in Leadership Education in Neurodevelopmental Disabilities (LEND) at University of Rochester, and a post-doctoral clinical residency in Orthopaedic physical therapy at Carolinas Rehabilitation in Charlotte, North Carolina. Clinically, Drew has mastered a wide-range of manipulative therapy techniques and approaches via continuing education and residency experiences (ultimately creating and co-creating several new techniques).

In this episode, we discuss:

-The pathophysiology of COVID-19

-Physical therapy treatment considerations in acute and outpatient settings

-Post Traumatic Stress Disorder among patients and family members

-Functional tests appropriate for patients following COVID-19 infection

-And so much more!




Andrew Ball Instagram

APTA Cardiovascular & Pulmonary Section COVID-19 Resources

United Sauces Website 


A big thank you to Net Health for sponsoring this episode!  Learn more about The ReDoc® Patient Portal here


For more information on Andrew:

Dr. Andrew Ball is a board certified orthopaedic physical therapist with nearly 20 years experience in physical therapy. Drew has earned numerous advanced degrees including an MBA/PhD in Healthcare Management, and post-professional DPT from MGH Institute of Health Professions. He has completed a post-graduate fellowship in Leadership Education in Neurodevelopmental Disabilities (LEND) at University of Rochester, and a post-doctoral clinical residency in Orthopaedic physical therapy at Carolinas Rehabilitation in Charlotte, North Carolina. Clinically, Drew has mastered a wide-range of manipulative therapy techniques and approaches via continuing education and residency experiences (ultimately creating and co-creating several new techniques). He is certified by the National Academy of Sports Medicine (NASM) as a sports performance enhancement specialist (PES) and was personally trained and certified (CMTPT) by Janet Travell’s physical therapist protégé (Dr. Jan Dommerholt of Myopain Seminars) in myofascial trigger point dry needling. Dr. Ball serves on the Specialist Academy of Content Experts (SACE) writing clinical questions for OCS exam, as well as research and evidence-based-practice questions for all of the physical therapist board certification exams.

Dr. Ball currently serves on the clinical and research faculty at the Carolinas Rehabilitation Orthopaedic physical therapy residency teaching research methods and evidence-informed clinical decision making, but also contributes to the clinical track mentoring residents in manipulative therapy and trigger point dry needling. His publication record is diverse, spanning subjects ranging from conducting meta-analysis, to models of physical therapist graduate education, to political empowerment of patients with physical and intellectual disability. Dr. Ball’s most recent publications are related to thrust manipulation and can be obtained open-access from the International Journal of Physiotherapy and Rehabilitation.

Drew is married to his wonderful wife Erin Ball, PT, DPT, COMT, CMTPT. Erin is Maitland certified in orthopaedic manual therapy (COMT), certified in myofascial trigger point dry needling (CMTPT), and has extensive training in pelvic pain, urinary incontinence, and lymphedema management. They live with their two dogs one of which is a tripod who was adopted after loosing his hind-leg in a motor-vehicle accident.


For more information on Jenna:

Jenna Kantor (co-founder) is a bubbly and energetic girl who was born and raised in Petaluma, California. Growing up, she trained and performed ballet throughout the United States. After earning a BA in Dance and Drama at the University of California, Irvine, she worked professionally in musical theatre for 15+ years with tours, regional theatres, & overseas ( until she found herself ready to move onto a new chapter in her life – a career in Physical Therapy. Jenna is currently in her 3rd year at Columbia University’s Physical Therapy Program. She is also a co-founder of the podcast, “Physiotherapy Performance Perspectives,” has an evidence-based monthly youtube series titled “Injury Prevention for Dancers,” is a NY SSIG Co-Founder, NYPTA Student Conclave 2017 Development Team, works with the NYPTA Greater New York Legislative Task Force and is the NYPTA Public Policy Committee Student Liaison. Jenna aspires to be a physical therapist for amateur and professional performers to help ensure long, healthy careers. To learn more, please check out her website:


Read the full transcript below:

Jenna Kantor (00:02):

Hello. Hello. Hello. This is Jenna Kantor with healthy, wealthy and smart. I'm super excited because I have Dr. Andrew Ball here who is going to be interviewed on COVID-19. Has anyone heard of it? Anyone? Bueller, Bueller and return to performance post infection. This is such an important conversation. I'm really excited and grateful to have you on Dr. Ball. Thank you.

Andrew Ball (01:26):

Well, first of all, please call me Drew. And second of all, let me thank you and your listeners for having me on.

Jenna Kantor (01:34):

Wonderful. It's really a joy. Would you mind telling people a little bit more about yourself so they can better get acquainted with Mr. Drew?

Andrew Ball (01:46):

I have been doing physical therapy for, I have a 20 year history in physical therapy. I've taught for a good majority of that time. I started out in pediatrics doing what I was told was the first fellowship in pediatric physical therapy and neurodevelopment at the university of Rochester, which has since kind of turned into a PTA accredited residency program at the strong center for developmental disabilities and then evolved into doing orthopedics. I hold an MBA, PhD in health care management. I went and did a post-professional DPT, but I got to sing. None of that matters really the salient point. And I think I'm using that word correctly. But don't go with it. Go with the pertinent point is that I could be any one of your listeners who treats in outpatient orthopedics who treats in sports.

Andrew Ball (02:48):

My passion is working with musical athletes. I started working with guitarists. I played piano at Peabody when I was a little kid, put that down and Mmm. And ultimately I got back into music by playing guitar, by being forced to play guitar because I was working with guitarists. And at some point it's like working with a football player and never having played football or treating dancers and never having dance. There's a point where there's a level of respect from your patients. You just don't have it unless you actually have, okay, I've done the work. You can't really speak the language. So I recognized that there were two ways, one of two ways to do that. One was to begin building guitars. So I started doing that. And then ultimately one of the guys that I built a guitar for who plays guitar for Carl Palmer formerly of Emerson Lake and Palmer in Asia.

Andrew Ball (03:58):

Basically he told me like, this guitar is great, but you really have to learn how to play or, yeah, I mean you really are going to have to learn the language of the little things like the posture and the whole, you can talk about holding the guitar, but you know, if you're a grunge player and you're playing bass, you've got to play that guitar and you gotta play that bass guitar and your name and it doesn't matter. Cause it doesn't look cool to have it in the right, you know, proper position. And the muscle memory that these guys had been in gals have been doing, you know, since they were you know, 12 years old you know, you're not going to change that. It's like changing someone's golf swing or if you're going to change it, they have to understand that it is going to be for a greater good.

Andrew Ball (04:45):

Like being able to play a 60 date tour versus having shoulder pain after 30. So, I kind of weaved and wobbled through trigger point dry needling. And I also teach for my pain seminars, but that got me into working with the Jamaican Olympic track and field team. It got me into working with the Charlotte symphony and I'm one of the physical therapists for them. But ultimately I am trust like any one of your performance PTs who is interested in that population and at the same time truly truly wants to help individuals that have a hard time finding care. And so that, is that correct?

Jenna Kantor (05:37):

Yeah, I think that's great. I mean you could go on for a very long time and I really want to get to the point because this man clearly he is a person to learn from. He has so much information to share and I'm really happy about this topic that we're diving into with COVID-19. Let's go straight into the point COVID-19. What are the effects that it has on the body that we need to start paying attention to?

Andrew Ball (05:57):

Like the first things that we have to just acknowledge cause this is going to be something new to us to consider. Right. So there's a lot of things that we need to consider. The physical I'll talk about first. And the psychological, which is a piece that we don't, that certainly performance, that's a huge issue, but that's certainly not something that most PTs outside of the performance training group really, really focuses on. So I'll start out with a friend of mine who was one of the first a thousand people to be diagnosed with COVID. She was in Washington state. She was one of the first 250. She's super, super bright. She holds a PhD in aerospace engineering or aerospace engineering design.

Andrew Ball (06:57):

She's a little bit younger than I am. How old am I? Not quite 48 years of age. And she was, is extremely fit very outdoorsy plays an instrument. So I just want to kind of walk through what she experienced. And this could be again, any one of your listeners on days zero, we'll call it before she was diagnosed. She was skiing I believe snowboarding, but skiing and had some aches and a dry cough and fatigue and experienced something that she had never experienced before that she described as chest awareness. Now your patients and folks that you work with are very acutely aware of breath.

Andrew Ball (08:06):

Right? So I kind of asked her, was that what you meant? She's like, no. I felt like I had to consciously think about every inhalation and exhalation that I chose. And that was before, before a diagnosis, but that was faint. She described it as on day one, which is the day that the fever tends to rise. Not everybody has a fever. So there's variability here that she spiked a fever of 102. She had difficulty breathing day two, that worsen. She had a dry cough and we should get into the idea of a dry cough versus a wet a cough a little bit later when we talk about the physiology of this and how it differs from a pneumonia. And had some GI dysfunction as well. And although we kind of talk about the upper respiratory issues, we also need to understand that the virus enters through the injury.

Andrew Ball (09:16):

The angiotensin converting enzyme to receptors. And, there's obviously the majority of those are or in the lungs, but there are some in the GI tract as well. They're actually all over the body, but and that's why some of the lesser talked about symptoms include things like GI disturbance and urinary issues. And in her case loose bowels by day three, that's when she had a virtual visit. And luckily because there were so few folks being diagnosed at that time, she was able to get a clinical diagnosis by that evening coded by Dave. Or that's when she went to the emergency department because she felt like she thought she had a pneumothorax. She felt like she was unable to fill her left lung with air. And they did a chest X Ray.

Andrew Ball (10:19):

They did the nasal swab. That was day four. She described it as touching her brain. I mean, it's a significant swap. /you have to go all the way up to the back of the throat in order to get right. Which is why many folks who feel like they have a mild case when they hear that they choose not to engage the healthcare system. And I really think that's a bad, bad, bad, bad decision. Because yes, 80% of folks are gonna have a mild to moderate case, but those 20% that you carry it to can have a severe reaction to the virus. That can be, it can be fatal. Five through nine, her fever began to break. Roughly day seven, she had a reflexive excuse me cough.

Andrew Ball (11:21):

She was unable to sleep. She felt like your ears were completely clog. She was coughing up blood and coughing so much that she had conjunctive like conjunctivitis, like that redness in the eyes. Day nine was what she described as noteworthy and describe that as intense exhaustion to the point where she had trouble lifting a spoon. She had trouble zipping up a jacket. And it wasn't until day 11 that she felt like having any kind of food or any kind of coffee. Now here's the critical point is performers or super, super attuned to the idea of I felt bad. The show must go on. I've got it. Push it there. And roughly day 11 through day 14, that's when the viral load is decreasing, but the inflammation is increasing. That's when people go on to ventilators. That's when people kick into this cytokine storm that we've heard of.

Andrew Ball (12:27):

And it's critical to understand that as a healthcare provider and certainly as a patient or performer, cause there have been a number of cases where people had mild cases and they push themselves during this phase a little bit too soon and died having had very, very mild symptoms and then took a turn as a day 14, she still had some difficulty concentrating. She was still exhausted. She found it exhausting to speak and still had a morning sore throat and that's considered a mild.


Jenna Kantor:

Okay. Wow. So I think that's, that's important to understand where these people have come from. You know, we don't, well we can get into the idea of ventilation and whatnot before we do it probably makes a little bit more sense to get into this kind of case and how we would treat them coming out of this when they can have contact and we can help them.

Andrew Ball (13:36):

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So kind of jumping forward into well let's take a step back before we do that. If you don't mind just into the pathophysiology a little bit, where would you like to jump back and forth? Let's if we do the pathophysiology, just because I don't want this podcast to be too long. Let's make it very brief, very, very brief so that way we can move forward. So I think it's important to understand that COVID-19 is not influenza, it's not cystic fibrosis, it's not pneumonia. And those are the diseases that when you took cardiopulmonary physical therapy, like that was the primary focus was these diseases where the airways would fill with mucus. That is not at all what happens in COVID-19. So a percentage of folks get acute respiratory distress syndrome and it's a dry cough.

Andrew Ball (14:32):

And the reason that it's a dry cough is that the airways don't fill with mucus. What's happening is that the capillaries begin to leak fluid into the lung tissue itself. So think that like lymphedema of the lung, which sounds horrible, right? So the airways are getting, a couple of things are happening, the airways are getting squashed, but still get kind of in and out, but the elasticity of the lungs is going to decrease considerably. And why she felt like she had pneumothorax. Exactly. So, the lungs start to stiffen. Much more fluid within the lungs in the lungs lining. So if you think of the lining like a balloon and having that kind of the alveoli, having that kind of consistency, normally it's as though you took Vaseline and you just slathered the balloon with Vaseline and then expect for the gas to exchange at the same rate in between that membrane and it just does a brand harder thinking of this and that.

Andrew Ball (16:10):

So the problem is not mucus. The problem is ventilation and perfusion. So part of the reason why I got very interested in this is there is a role obviously for quarantine workouts. And by that I don't mean, you know, our brave soldiers within our profession that are in acute care in the ICU and are turning patients so they don't get bed sores and turning them into prone for optimal ventilation profusion. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the therapist that the only thing that they're posting is information on what healthy people can do when they're stuck at home. And there's a place for that short, but I really feel like there is a role and a responsibility that our profession has to educate the public and to educate each other about COVID-19 and little things. So I started out just asking questions about what can we as physical therapists do?

Andrew Ball (17:20):

Right. You know, I went back to my cardiopulmonary books, you know, what is the role of putting people into a head down, a position that postural drainage. So they can get the mucus out. Well, newsflash, they don't have mucus, right? So that's not going to help. And it's not the best position for Benadryl for ventilation profusion. So that's important. And the other thing I started asking was, well, what about chest PT? You know, I was awesome at chest PT. I haven't done it since graduation, but I remember that as well. The problem with that, again, no mucus, the clear, the only thing that you are going to do if you are trying to help a performer with a mild case who is getting over COVID-19 is you will weaponize an aerosol the virus. So, you know, there were several folks that were suggesting that based on a poor understanding of the physiology and now we really have to retool and get the information out that no, the best position for somebody who has an active case of COVID-19 is prone because that optimizes ventilation profusion because of fluid dynamics and the anatomy of where the alveoli are.

Andrew Ball (18:37):

So I think that's important to understand because in performance, you know, we fast forwarding, we like to think about things like posture, right? Posture may, it can't hurt, but it's not going to make the huge effect that we think of. With some of the other respiratory structural kinds of problems. Can you see, Oh, taping can be somewhat helpful for folks who have breathing dysfunction and until folks get very, very, very far in their recovery process, that's probably not going to be helpful. When I talk about prone, these folks have been placed in a prone position for the minimum protocol I've seen is 12 hours, but usually it's somewhere between 16 and 18 hours a day and a 24 hour period to optimize ventilation perfusion.

Jenna Kantor (19:35):

Right. That's exactly right. Well, the other issue getting into the psychology of all this, Isolation, psychosis, delirium, and these are people who are in pain and I have a hard time taking a breath. Right? They can't have family members can't have family members in there. Right. So what do you think the impact of that is going to be when you see the patients six to eight weeks after the resolution of symptoms in outpatient or as a performance based therapist?


Andrew Ball:

Yeah, it's going to be probable in more than 50% of cases, 54% of cases. It's going to have a huge mental health impact that you can see at least 12 months later as PTSD. Now, I don't know about you and the musicians or performers that you've worked with myself included.

Andrew Ball (20:42):

I don't think that we're the least bunch and you layer, post traumatic stress a top that and what you end up with if you don't understand that walking into the room with the patient when you do the evaluation or when you treat them is a whole group of individuals, half of these folks who are going to have behavioral reactions to everything from the frustrations of making their appointments down to frustrations with the treatment process. It's just going to blow up seemingly out of nowhere. And I'm here to tell you it's not out of nowhere.

Jenna Kantor (21:25):

I get it. When you're talking about the psychological component, Oh, that's such an untapped situation. This is also new to us.

Jenna Kantor (21:39):

I don't know. I mean I guess it would just, I mean, off the top of my head would just how I am with my people when I'm with them. It's just really checking in, just checking in, asking. I would just keep asking and being like, are you okay? Let me know if this is starting to freak you out in any way. I think that that's gonna be the big thing. Like I need you to feel comfortable. I need you to feel safe and has to just be that level of, I mean, which we always have any way, but a new level of thought process, you know, sensitivity where something like going, even prone could make them go, you know, and they don't even know. They don't realize they're doing it. Their whole body could just even just naturally tense up and it could just become harder to breath just because they develop a new habit to feel like that's what it's going to feel like when they're on their stomach. We don't know.

Andrew Ball (22:28):

Fortunately or unfortunately, there's a ton of research. Oh, I'm working with patients with post traumatic stress as a function of you know, I don't want to get political here, but as a function of endless military action that are had over the course of the past years. So there's a fair amount of information on that, but awareness is going to be critical in working with these patients. Going back to infection though the question that I get asked probably more often than anything else is when is it appropriate to begin working with these folks without personal protective gear? And the answer to that is, there's some guidelines from the European rehabilitation society, but we really don't know. What we know is that patients can go stealth and can be contagious long after their symptoms disappear.

Andrew Ball (23:37):

And there's at least one case study a well written case study showing that the symptoms that the patient can shed the virus for 37 days after they're no longer symptomatic. And the problem with that is that here in the United States testing is scarce, right? To diagnose it, to say nothing of when are you clear completely of the virus. I'm not aware of widespread secondary testing. And then some of the guidelines from like the world health organization suggest that someone needs to be tested. I think it was in China. Needs to be tested twice and have a negative result twice before they're clear. And if we're not doing that, then we really have to wait six to eight weeks.

Andrew Ball (24:44):

And that's why, because you're going to be long, long past what we know to be the longest reported case. Now whether or not your patient is that, you know, new one that can where they stick around shedding the virus for 42 days or 48 days, you know, we don't know. And one of the scarier things from a public health perspective for me is the recognition that this is an RNA virus, which means that it's going to be harder to create a vaccine because like the common cold, like the rhino virus it slips, it mutates quickly. No, fortunately that has not happened.

Andrew Ball (25:49):

But there is every reason to be worried. And I don't want to freak people out, but there's every reason to be concerned that if we don't kill this thing this year, that it's going to come back every year in a slightly different form, perhaps more contagious, perhaps more stealth, perhaps more deadly. Perhaps it will shed the virus for a longer period of time before we were able to begin working with patients, which kind of gets to that economic effect. I understand that people are hurting. I understand that folks have private practices and cash based practices that have limited cashflow and they're hurting. I totally get that. Yeah. I mean, you know, and folks go, Oh, you don't understand. You work in a situation where you don't own your own practice.

Andrew Ball (27:01):

Well, that's true. You know, I have a significant impact income from teaching. So, you know, I get it. I understand that the dollars are tight, but if you told me that if we shut down for an additional two weeks and we can kill this thing completely, I would do that even if that meant a significant decrease in my salary. And at some point, I think that, and I'm not saying that everyone is a clinical doctor in our profession, I've gotten some feedback for that. But as a clinical doctoring profession, I do think that we have a solemn responsibility to the public in terms of educating on COVID-19 versus kind of filling the Instagram space with Mmm. Lots of home workouts, which are important. People need to keep fit and certainly keep their minds going while they're in quarantine.

Andrew Ball (28:10):

The problem is that there's so many outpatient private practice, cash based PTs that have a such a voice on Instagram that some of this information about just the mechanics of the disease, the physiology of the disease, how long you need to wait in order to protect yourself and your patient from either reinfection or infecting others just isn't pushing through. So, once again, thank you for allowing me to come on this podcast because I do think that those of us who have a voice in that space have an obligation to get some of this information.

Jenna Kantor (28:57):

Wow. Yeah. Yeah. It really, it is very valuable. I want to actually dive in, even though we've been going for a while, I think it is important to dive into now somebody who had the ventilator. Yeah. I think that, that we can't overlook that. There will be some people who've been that unfortunate. So could you talk about what that means with somebody who has been fortunate to recover from such a horrific.

Andrew Ball (29:28):

Sure. So, as I said, about 80% of patients are going to have a mild to moderate and they won't be hospitalized. They may, because of the stress and strain on their lungs, they may develop pneumonia, so they may actually end up, you know, having secondary sputum. But those are folks who, even with the pneumonia are going to have something that we consider a fairly mild case. 20% are going to be severe to critical. And the severe group are the ones who are going to have dyspnea. They're the ones who are going to have rapid breathing that's defined as more than 30 per minute. Their oxygen saturation is going to drop to 93%, and they'll have on a cat scan, you'll be able to see lung infiltrate. That looks like kind of a grounded glass appearance of about 50%.

Andrew Ball (30:30):

So, and then you've got 14% that are severe that fit that classification and about 6% that are critical. And that's respiratory failure, septic shock, multiorgan failure. And within that group, okay 20%, about 25%, we'll end up in the intensive care unit most of which or many of which will end up on a ventilator. And if you end up in the ICU on a ventilator, your chance of survival is about 50%. So what tends to happen with that ventilated population is on roughly about day 14 we talked about how the viral load increases and then decreases while the inflammation increases. Well as the inflammation in the lung increases okay. A percentage of those folks, as I said, will end up roughly around day 15 needing to be ventilated for about four to five days. And half of them will come off and half of them will not. So the people who come off their recovery. So their recovery we don't, again, there haven't been a ton of folks, so we don't know a ton. What we do know is that in severe cases, there's going to be ICU acquired muscle weakness. They're going to have a severe loss of lung function, a severe loss of muscle mass.

Andrew Ball (32:16):

Yeah, we're getting younger too, but just as things been saying percentages. Yeah. neuropathy, myopathy. The good news is, is that we can begin to protect recovery. And the greatest, what we know is that the greatest amount in physical function will be seen. If the patient falls into acute respiratory failure, we'll see that within roughly the first two months of discharged. So that gives us some kind of a gauge. In addition the degree of disability at about a week after discharge determines the one year mortality and recovery trajectory of that individual. So we have some guidelines as far as that's concerned from acute respiratory distress syndrome, right? So that's not necessarily coded, but we believe that we can extrapolate in general what we haven't talked about is the impact on them.

Andrew Ball (33:30):

And the fact that about 30% of family members of individuals with acute respiratory syndrome end up with PTSD. So now you have this group, we're 50% of folks who have been in the ICU have PTSD and 30% those folks have family members who have PTSD. How do you think that's going to go down or like, a lot of them can't go into the hospital, but they can do a FaceTime video. So what they get to see in that FaceTime video with their loved ones in the hospital, I'm talking about after they're discharged. I'm talking about later. Yeah. No, but I'm just saying the family members with the person, I'm like their interaction. That's what I'm referring to, their reaction with it. If you're prone for 16 to 18 hours a day, right?

Jenna Kantor (34:07):

Yeah. So what do you do with these folks when you finally see them? Right. So you're going to have chocolate. Chocolate makes people happy. Right? It's funny, it's funny you say that. I'm doing a webinar with some some other instructors that I teach with and we're kind of talking about the format. And I'm a huge fan of the old school. I love the daily show, but I'm a huge fan of the old daily show with Craig Kilborne. He used to do the thing where he would like ask opinion questions. I'll ask you Reese's pieces or M&Ms no, I'm sorry. The correct answer is eminence. No, I'm sorry you were wrong. No, I would agree. But that's what he would say.

Jenna Kantor (35:13):

He would end with those kinds of questions. Kind of like his version of the James Lipton kind of five questions. What do you hope that God says when you die anyway, we're getting off track. So what I'd like to kind of go through is you're going to have folks that have worked with you in the past. They are post infection. Ah, they’re your dancers, they're your musicians in the pit. They're your directors. They're your loved ones that are going to refuse to see anyone. But yeah.


Andrew Ball:

Right. And of those folks, you're going to need to know what to, you know, what to do. I would say if you hear nothing else from me, remember your vitals and there's, it has to be a Renaissance now of taking heart rate, taking respiratory rate, taking oxygen saturation, taking blood pressure with every patient.

Andrew Ball (36:12):

The functional tests that we're probably gonna have to start using are things like ambulatory distance, which is going to be severely decreased. We'll be lucky if some of these folks are able to walk 300 feet. Some of them, right, if they're severely impaired. You know, that's not far enough to get from your car to a doctor's office. You normally need about 500 feet for that to say nothing of getting back to your daily life and doing your own grocery shopping with which you need at a super target or R or Walmart, you need a good half mile, you need a good 2,500, 2,500 feet. But things like the five times sit to stand test or test that we're going to need to brush up on the six minute walk test. Fortunately we can remote monitor some of those things.

Andrew Ball (37:05):

Tele-Health isn't just you know, getting on a zoom call with somebody tele health, we need to think of that in an expanded way, right? There's apps that will allow for you to do a six minute walk test or your patient to do a six minute walk test and then send you those results remotely from there, from their app. Some folks aren't going to be able to walk for six minutes, right? So at that point we're going to have to back up into feet per second or four meters per second. And we have some metrics for that. You know, we know that somebody who's under 70 at a normal walking pace should be able to walk a good 2,500 feet at a 4.0 feet per second. So, you know, somebody comes in completely deconditioned and they're walking 1.5 feet per second for 500 feet. We've got some work to do.

Jenna Kantor (38:36):

Yeah, totally. Yeah. You know, don't forget about deep breathing, deep dive. And I don't just mean you know the breath, but I mean the breadth, I mean the deep diaphragmatic breathing, bringing it all the way down into your belly, your performers should be well for those dancers who sing, that's huge. That's so huge to reconnect with it, even though that may seem so basic with them before, but have they caught the disease. And, for sure to make sure that starts to get all connected and back in check and not a stressful

Andrew Ball (38:43):

Right. You know, and then I look into things that, Mmm, that as I've spoken with some cardiopulmonary specialist, you know, all of this comes from the European rehab society. I also want to plug the American physical therapy association. I shouldn't have done this at the very top of the of the discussion. But the pacer project, the post acute  COVID-19 exercise and rehabilitation program, it is completely free, but it's time intensive. Mmm. You know, they've tried to break things down into 45 minutes or hour and a half lectures, but there's like eight or 10 of them. You don't have to watch all of them. It's free. If you want to get the certification and the CEO's is fine, go through the APTA learning center, but they've put everything up on YouTube and all you have to do is search APTA cardiovascular section and you'll get the the literature. I think a lot of orthopedic sports performance based PTs they're really tech savvy and they kind of want to get the information through podcasts or a like a one hour presentation. So that's, well, essentially what I'm trying to do is to translate.

Jenna Kantor (40:08):

That's what's so great. I mean I'm going to be sharing this in groups as well to keep spreading the information, which is absolutely wonderful. This is good.

Andrew Ball (40:21):

Well, I do add in a couple of things that I've kind of brought to there. Okay. So some of their attention and because they're kind of case study oriented, they're like, well, we're really not teaching that. But particularly for it can't hurt. And particularly for performers humming and I don't mean like humming a song. I mean a long, deep droning

Andrew Ball (40:52):

There's evidence to suggest that it temporarily increases carbon dioxide and it temporarily increases nitric oxide. And in so doing leads to temporary base or dilation, so it can't hurt. I don't know how long it actually lasts. Certainly the deep breathing and increasing walking distance and walking speed is more important. But if you're bored and have nothing else to do while you're in quarantine humming is probably not thinkers would appreciate that.

Jenna Kantor (41:28):

They'd be like, yeah, for sure. That will be a vocal way for them to get that all connected. Also nasal, yeah, there's a lot of stuff with training and staying vocally fit, if you will. So that would actually speak to there values.

Andrew Ball (41:44):

Yeah. Yeah. I could go into a lot more here. I just want to make sure that that folks have a good kind basic understanding here. You know, we've heard, you know, wash your hands, wash your hands, wash your hands. So I'll make a plug for wash your hands, wash your hands, wash your hands. And even in some other countries where the health care workers understood the severity of COVID-19 the healthcare workers seem to be a risk to themselves because they didn't properly and thoroughly and frequently wash their hands. I would say whatever you think you're doing, it's probably not enough. Okay. The other thing that I would say about the hand sanitizers that we tend to use the world health organization and FDA suggest 75 to 80% alcohol.

Andrew Ball (42:50):

And that is not what most clinics have. Most have like the foam sanitizer or the like the Purell, which is 60%. Okay. You know, plugging performers amazing, okay. Guitarists, my performance Buddha and spirit animal is Ron Bumblefoot fall who is in the band spun. Do you know who that is? No, it's not the name. He's in sons of Apollo. He was the lead vocalist for Asia this last tour. And those of you who love guns and roses he was the guitarist the main guitarist on the last guns and roses album. Chinese democracy is ridiculous as a player and he's amazing as a teacher as well in any of that. He also has a line of hot sauce and one of the, and I just love when performers do this and kind of take responsibility for the position that we're in, but a which is the distributor that he works with has retooled one of their lines to put out hand sanitizer that is 75 to 80% alcohol.

Andrew Ball (44:20):

So that will in fact kill the Corona virus. So, Mmm. Great. Local company here in Charlotte. Highly, highly recommend and plugged them. Hey, you want to support a performer you know, during these times. And the last thing that I will leave folks with is as you are working with patients post infection, ask yourself, do you need to put your hands on this patient? Can this be done remotely? And I'm really more talking you know, it really more talking to the folks who do outpatient work, who have their own side hustle who do work in a healthcare system who are going to be pulled inpatient, right? You know, either somewhere like New York city where you are. And folks have to be kind of pulled in, you know, right down to the rural hospital you know, in the middle of nowhere.

Andrew Ball (45:32):

And there's two physical therapists, one inpatient, one outpatient, and they need help working because now they have more folks that are getting ill. You know, really ask the question, both inpatient in your cash practice, in your private practice for the sake of killing this thing. And for the sake of decreasing whether or not you're a force vector, do you need to provide that treatment? And is there someone else who can be your hands? Can you delegate that to a nurse? Can you delegate that to a family member? I really think that we're going to a friend of mine who runs another podcast Adam Meakins, has been talking about physical therapy in terms of AC DC during COVID and after COVID. And I really think that all areas of practice are going to change as a result ranging from the little things that I just talked about, you know, having to do vital signs with everybody right down to really asking the question, can I go from an interdisciplinary model of care to a transdisciplinary model of care?

Andrew Ball (46:58):

Can I let go of that professional boundary and ego. And I know that a lot of my contemporaries are not going to be comfortable with that. I think we have to be secure in the knowledge that we have more than the hands that we place on people. It's all important, but I do think that there's going to be a paradigm shift.

Jenna Kantor (47:30):

I love it. Thank you. So, for coming on, Drew, this was an absolute joy. Where can people find you and reach out to you either on social media or email?

Andrew Ball (47:39):

Well they can reach out to me. I'm on Instagram @drdrewPT. They can email me at If I don't respond, I have a ton of spam filters. So don't be shy about reaching out to me through social media. But I really want to make it clear. I'm not the expert here. The true experts, you know, are people like Steve Tepper Ellen Hilda grass Angela a beta Campbell Telia polic you know, these are the folks that we really should be talking to are Eric. And if you really want more information, I'm happy to direct people to it.

Jenna Kantor (48:37):

That is helpful. Yeah, absolutely.

Andrew Ball (48:39):

The Easter projects, the post acute COVID-19 exercise rehabilitation project is really where folks want to go for more in depth information from physiology to post acute through the entire spectrum of post acute care.

Jenna Kantor (49:00):

Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for coming on. You guys give a big shout out to him if you have seen this, just so he can really see how he has impacted so many. Thank you so much for coming on, Drew. Have a great day, everyone.


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May 13, 2020

On this episode of the Healthy, Wealthy and Smart Podcast, I welcome Elizabeth Santos on the show to discuss burnout among new graduates. Elizabeth Santos is a Physical Therapist, Naturopathic Practitioner and Author of 'New Graduate's Guide to Physiotherapy: Avoid Burnout and Injury, Build Resilience and Thrive in Clinical Practice’ an academic style of book designed to be a supplementary text for final year students and new graduates.  Elizabeth has a special interest in maternity health care and works for a talented team of physiotherapists in a musculoskeletal private practice that focuses predominantly on running and sports, pelvic floor health and pregnancy and postnatal care. She is also an active member of the Australian Physiotherapy Association, and a member of the University of Adelaide Physiotherapy Advisory Board.

In this episode, we discuss:

-Are new graduates prepared for clinical practice?

-Why new graduates are most at risk for burnout

-The signs and symptoms of burnout

-Elizabeth’s book, New Graduate’s Guide to Physiotherapy: Avoid burnout and thrive in clinical practice

-And so much more!


Elizabeth Santos Facebook

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Elizabeth Santos Website

New Graduate's Guide to Physiotherapy: 10% off with code: hwspodcast


A big thank you to Net Health for sponsoring this episode!  Learn more about Secure Videoconferencing and Text Messaging for Telehealth.


For more information on Elizabeth:

Elizabeth Santos is an Australian physical therapist, naturopathic practitioner and author of ‘New Graduate’s Guide to Physiotherapy.’ Elizabeth completed a bachelor of physiotherapy at the University of South Australia in 2006 and then went on to work across a range of clinical areas, from acute care within the public hospital system, to aged care,  rehabilitation in the home, and musculoskeletal physiotherapy where she now works exclusively. She has a special interest in maternity healthcare and works for a talented team of physiotherapists in a clinic that focuses mainly on running and sports, pelvic floor health and pregnancy and postnatal care. Elizabeth also completed a second bachelor degree in Health Sciences – Naturopathy in 2014 so that she could provide a holistic and integrative approach to her clients. Elizabeth is an active member of the Australian Physiotherapy Association (APA) and member of the University of Adelaide Physiotherapy Advisory Board.

During her career, Elizabeth became curious about the pervasive burnout she saw in the profession so she spent seven years reading literature on the subjects of injury, attrition and burnout in physiotherapy. Elizabeth has written an academic style of book that is full of the latest research to guide new physical therapists and is designed to be a supplementary text for final-year students and new and recent graduates.

The book covers key areas of clinical interest for new graduates, including how to successfully gain employment, find a mentor, understand insurance and medico-legal requirements, build relationships with clients and colleagues, and learn how to work through professional challenges as they arise.

Elizabeth provides one-to-one mentoring for new graduate physical therapists and also hosts in-person and online workshops for helpers and health professionals who wish to prevent burnout, build resilience and truly thrive in the roles they have chosen. She believes that when we take good care of ourselves we can be of greatest service to others.

Elizabeth’s intention is to help new graduate physiotherapists truly thrive in those first years of clinical practice and beyond.


Read the full transcript below:

Karen Litzy (00:01):

Hi Elizabeth, welcome to the podcast all the way from Australia. I'm so happy to have you on the program.

Elizabeth Santos (00:08):

Thank you for having me.

Karen Litzy (00:09):

And now a couple of weeks ago, this is just for the listeners, a couple of weeks ago, I interviewed Tavana Boggs on burnout and physical therapy and she was talking about some of the clients that she works with and yeah, we were sort of centering the talk around people who are 12 to 15 years out of physical therapy school. They've been practicing for a long time. So today we're taking a different take on burnout. So today we're going to be talking about avoiding burnout as a new graduate. And Elizabeth has written a book, new graduates guide to physiotherapy, avoid burnout and injury and build resilience and thrive in clinical practice. So we are going to talk about burnout with new grads because sadly it's a thing.

Elizabeth Santos (01:01):

Right? It is, it is. It's a thing.

Karen Litzy (01:04):

I wish it weren't, but it's a thing. So go. So talk about why you took the steps to write this book in the first place.

Elizabeth Santos (01:14):

Thank you for the introduction. And look. Firstly, I want to say it's a really exciting time to be a new graduate. I think there's so much opportunity for new graduates and for physiotherapists right now, particularly. I wrote this book last year. It was published. It really was the culmination of lots of reading and research over many, many years and actually took me seven years to put it all together. From the moment I started taking notes in the clinic one day just on some letterhead and I thought, Oh, you know, what's going on here? What's happening in the profession? I was curious about the burnout that I saw and also attrition. So physiotherapists leaving the profession because they were feeling unhappy or not really wanting to continue for some reason. I actually looked into some research on this and found a study from Curtin university in Perth, Western Australia. And that study showed that up to 65% of the participants interviewed who were new graduates anticipated leaving within 10 years. It was so, I thought, what's going on here? You know, why is this so high and what can we do about that?

Karen Litzy (02:33):

I mean that does seem very high. So they've just graduated and they already have the plans to get out of the profession.

Elizabeth Santos (02:42):

Yes, it was quite an alarming study and I've seen it those results actually communicated at conferences since and people bringing it up as a real talking point. Within the same study they found that 25% of participants predicted a long term career in physio therapy. So there were some people who were saying, you know, I am going to stick this out and I do see this as a long term plan, but not as many as you'd expect at that point in their studies. You'd be expecting them to come out fresh and excited and ready to take on the world.

Karen Litzy (03:17):

And what do you feel that it is a lack of readiness? Are they not ready for clinical practice? Are they not ready for the real world? I mean, what are your thoughts on that?

Elizabeth Santos (03:30):

That's a great question because that's also something that's been looked at in the literature a lot in Australia particularly, you know, that sense of our physio therapists actually ready to step into the real world and step into their shoes. As a clinician, you know, we try to make sure that physical therapists have adequate clinical placements and exposure to different areas of physiotherapy because we know that helps them to make decisions about their career pathway. You know, they've got that knowledge to draw on when they're choosing their first job or their second job. But there are other things that can help physio therapists prepare and feel job ready. So some of the things that have been highlighted in Australian research where that physios who have as students had experienced in sporting teams or had additional training in radiology. So people who've gone on to study and look at scans in a bit more detail, have had good experiences with that and that's inspired them to go on and perhaps work in orthopedics or musculoskeletal physiotherapy.

Elizabeth Santos (04:43):

We've also found that practicing building a supportive relationship and mentorships with colleagues, but also with other professionals. So whether that's social workers or psychologists or doctors and other allied health professions, that's become something that's really big. And there's lots of research behind that now as well. And just, you know, starting to think about which areas might interest you and what professional development you're going to go down. Which pathway are you going to go down once you graduate? And there's more and more internships which are becoming available too, which are privately operated internships through private practices and things. But yeah, so there's some of the things that new graduates can do to sort of help themselves feel that little bit more prepared and job ready.

Karen Litzy (05:32):

And so what I'm hearing is, you know, getting some inspiration from your placements, getting inspiration and that can come from different places, right? That can come from a mentor, like do they mention finding a good mentor, whether that be within your Institute, your educational institution or outside of, within the profession. Does that help with burnout?

Elizabeth Santos (05:57):

So there is some research to show that mentoring actually helps not only the new graduates, so the fresh physiotherapists coming through, but it actually helps the more experienced ones as well. It helps them to develop a sense of meaning in their work. So finding the right mentor is really crucial and I think for new graduates and for students really, you know, they've got that mentoring in built beautifully in the undergraduate training programs. So they've got these really inspiring, highly qualified, highly skilled therapists teaching them, taking them through step by step. And it's a really important relationship. But then when they become a new graduate, they suddenly lose that sense of being protected by the university. You know, they're out in the real world. It's like leaving home for the first time, you know, it's a little bit scary being out in the world.

Elizabeth Santos (06:52):

And then they've got to find mentors in other ways. And so there's two ways that you can go about finding a mentor and one is to have a mentor who's actually got really more of a vested interest in seeing you succeed. So they're the ones who probably your employer because they're going to want to see you grow and they want to see you help clients and they want to see you do the best that you can because it's going to be beneficial for you and it's going to be beneficial for the practice. But then there are other people who become mentors in your life because they've got some sort of interest in seeing you thrive as well. So it might be someone who's a family member who's a physical therapist or someone who's been an educator, but then you've formed a relationship that's perhaps, even outside the university, which does happen too with different training programs and things. So I guess it is a really important piece of the puzzle and something that, and new graduates can, you know, definitely look into and find someone who's gonna help them.

Karen Litzy (07:59):

Yeah. Yeah. And, one thing that I found very interesting from a conversation I had a couple of weeks ago about sort of helping new graduates find a roadmap for their career is to really be very clear on what your vision or what your individual mission statement is. Mmm. And it's hard, right? You really have to do some soul searching and find out what is your mission statement. And this is from Tracy Blake. She is a physiotherapist in Canada and she suggested that everyone have a mission statement and that that mission statement should not have jargon in it. It should not have physical therapy jargon, right? So you want to try and find what your mission is even as a new graduate. Write your mission out, repeat it over and over again.

Elizabeth Santos (08:53):

Tell it to people. So that becomes real.

Karen Litzy (08:56):

And I think that will help you gravitate towards the right mentor.

Elizabeth Santos (09:02):

Fantastic. I really love that. That's a great idea. And something that's really practical that the listeners who are tuning into this podcast can actually sit down and do it is it aligns with something that I read a while ago about new graduates and is actually in the book and I can't find the source unfortunately, but it was to picture your list in two years time and work towards it now. So if you can actually start, you know, that sense of who do I want to work with, what kind of clients really light me up, you know, who do I feel called to serve? And being okay with that changing over time as well and knowing that through different phases of your life. It, it may change for a little and that's okay. It was actually an experienced physiotherapist. I've just had a flash of the face where that quote came from, so I can't give him credit by name, but

Karen Litzy (10:06):

But that's fine. He'll know when he listened to that it was him. Yeah. And I always find that I love that you said it may change and morph over time because I think what gives people a lot of stress is that when you graduate, like let's say you say, I'm going to work with children, this is what I want to do, I know it, this is going to be my life's work. And then you start to work and you're like, you know, I kind of like working with athletes, I kind of like working with pregnant moms, moms to be right.

Karen Litzy (10:42):

I think to avoid some burnout and avoid some guilt, you have to give yourself permission to change because if you don't, I feel like you're carrying this baggage with you and can’t that also contribute to burnout. Especially if you're a year or two out and you're like, Oh wait a second, this isn't quite what I thought it was going to be. I kinda like doing this. But I said I was going to do this and now I guess I have to do it right. And I'm sure you've heard that before.

Elizabeth Santos (11:10):

Absolutely. And so knowing that the path will unfold step by step, job by job, and you may not be in the same role for 20 years if that doesn't feel aligned for you. And that's okay. And it's that sense of knowing and trusting, which yeah, it's just something that you cultivate over time and have to feel confident in. But it's hard in the beginning because I've heard a lot of new graduates say to me that they're concerned that if they take this first job in aged care, or if they take this first job in musculoskeletal private practice, then they're locked into that, you know, and there's no way out and there's no, and if they want to change their mind and do this, and quite often it's me then encouraging them just to make a decision. And I never you know, I never really help anyone to make a decision.

Elizabeth Santos (12:04):

I just help them to sort of look inside themselves and make lists of the things that light them up and like we've discussed. So that mission statement kind of idea is going to help them find the right path and then reconcile that and you know, and back themselves and go for it.


Karen Litzy:

Yeah, I think that's great advice. And now in the book, Mmm. You also say that burnout as we are talking about is an issue for new physiotherapists, right? So we talked about some things that maybe they can do, but let's back it up. Why are they at risk for burnout if they haven't even started?


Elizabeth Santos:

Hmm, good question. Because burnout is something that we know about and we've all talked about. We've heard about it, we've read articles, there's a huge body of research looking at burnout among nurses and doctors and psychologists.

Elizabeth Santos (13:04):

And there is a relatively smaller but growing body of research about burnout in physio-therapy too. And we know it's because there's parallels between those professions. And because physiotherapists in direct patient care, really with clients every day lots of different people from all walks of life. And there's lots of different social and psychosocial elements that go along with that. But on top of the therapeutic relationship that you're building with clients and all of those things, new graduates are juggling seeing more clients than before as well. So they might've been able to cope with seeing and processing, you know, the pain or the stories of three or four patients in one day. But then when they've got to do that for 20 or in some hospital environments and clinics, even more than that with classes and things, you know, it can take its toll. And so navigating that professional work environment and even for physiotherapists, you know, navigating their own personal processing of that can the mental load and it can add up to burn out.

Elizabeth Santos (14:15):

So I guess we can also hypothesize that new graduates are really trying to put their best foot forward too and they want to work really hard and they want to be as good as they can for their employers. So they're going to be at risk a little bit there too.

Karen Litzy (14:52):

Yeah. So it's a lot of external and internal pressures. Yeah. That kind of happened all at once. Right? You graduate and all of a sudden, boom, you've got all of these pressures from the outside. And how do you deal with that mentally and emotionally? And it almost makes me think that there should be a, maybe there are, I don't Sort of mental health support groups for new graduates so that they can almost like an alcoholics anonymous, right? So they can go in and discuss the things that are causing them to have these feelings of burnout. I don't know if that exists. Do you know, is that a thing?

Elizabeth Santos (15:09):

It doesn't to my knowledge, but it sounds like a great idea, you know, just that community. And look, I think there are some communities on Facebook that we possibly don't know about because we're not new graduates. And I do know of some student association groups and we certainly have some great new graduate programs through the professional association in Australia in terms of building those support networks in. So, you know, that's up and coming as well, which is really exciting.

Karen Litzy (15:46):

It's definitely a growth area. Awesome. All right. So let's talk about what are the signs of burnout? So signs of burnout. Let's say if you're the new grad or let's say you're someone like me who's been out for quite some time, can I see these signs of burnout in new graduates? So go ahead.

Elizabeth Santos (16:07):

Yes, you can definitely see signs of burnout in people. And I think it's important to differentiate signs and symptoms just like you would if you were, you know, a medical practitioner. Even as physiotherapists, we do look at those things separately. So the signs would be seeing that reduced employee engagement. So perhaps loss of enthusiasm for new projects or for jobs that you're given. Perhaps less willingness to contribute. A sense of lack of transparency around how you're really feeling or what's really going on for you. So quite often new graduates will try and hide their emotions a little bit or hide that vulnerability and just put, you know, hold their chin high and keep going instead of being honest about where they're actually at. If we look at symptoms, they're actually the things that you're feeling as a physiotherapist. So whether you're a new graduate or an experienced physiotherapists, they're going to be quite similar.

Elizabeth Santos (17:13):

So they will be things like fatigue. It's going to be different for everyone, but you might get headaches or you might feel nauseous at work or you might have a sinking feeling or that sense of dread about going to work. For some new graduates I've spoken to, they've even been in tears in the car going into the job in extreme cases where they're feeling not supported in their workplace or they're feeling like they want to quit or leave that particular role. So it's actually coaching people through those feelings, those emotions because they're the symptoms. You actually manifest in the body. But then there are the signs which are those bigger picture things which people on the outside looking in tend to see. If we look a little bit deeper, we can actually look at some of the research around this and look at the validated tools which have been used to assess the burnout in society.

Elizabeth Santos (18:13):

So particularly in the health professions, the mass like burnout inventory has been used. And this is a 22 item outcome measurement tool, which takes about 10 or 15 minutes to complete and it's been considered the gold standard since it was created in the 1980s it's obviously been updated since then and there are now five different inventories which are used across different settings. And they're used in the research a lot because they contain some great questions which respondents can answer. So things like I feel used up at the end of the day and you would score that with never being a zero through two every day being a six. And there's different subsets within the outcome tool so you can score each subset or each part of it. And what it does is it actually provides some information for people who are looking at burnout in different populations and it helps to categorize them into three distinct categories.

Elizabeth Santos (19:17):

So the first one is emotional exhaustion, which is where physical therapists become depleted and they might be starting to feel a bit fatigued or some of those symptoms I mentioned. And this then leads to that second stage of burnout, which is called depersonalization in which the physiotherapists stops empathizing as well as they normally would and they might even start to become detached from their clients or show signs of cynicism, which is unfortunately not a good sign as a practitioner if you're having a dig at clients or locking them in some way. Yeah, it's a sign of burnout and then that third stage, yeah, it's reduced personal accomplishment. So for new graduates this might look like, you know, compromised standards of care or reduced sense of personal achievement. Then starting to wonder if they're even a good physio at all, if they even know anything at all. And that kind of ties in with the imposter syndrome and you know, that sense of being a fraud, which I talk about in the book as well, that these are all things that you can look at if these signs are starting to emerge and take some action, talk it through, find some strategies.


Karen Litzy:

And I was just thinking as an employer, is this, let's say doing this Burt, the mass, like burnout, inventory, giving this to your employees, is that a good or a bad thing?

Elizabeth Santos (20:49):

I can a great question. I can't quite put my finger on that. It could go either way, couldn't it? It could, right? It could go either way. And sometimes just sitting down and having those honest conversations and actually you don't necessarily need to ask your employees if they're feeling burnt out, but you can check in on engagement and check in on, you know, are they feeling inspired? Do they have enough to work on? What kind of clients do they want to be working with? Looking at the personal mission statement stuff, sharing wins, you know, that's a big one. That sense of positivity. And that's something we do in the clinic a lot as a team, which is fantastic.

Karen Litzy (21:31):

That is fantastic. And, and I would imagine that all of that just becomes, just gives that new graduate, especially a sense of being taken care of. We spoke a little bit beforehand and we talked about the word comfort. So I can only imagine if you're the employer, if you're the more experienced, even if you're not the employer, if even if you're the more experienced physical therapist in the clinic or in the hospital and you're just checking in with people on a weekly basis, ask them, how are you doing? How can I help? What do you need help with? Are you stuck? I can only imagine that it would give, cause I know when people check in on me, it does give me a sense of comfort like, Oh, this person's in my corner. This is great.

Elizabeth Santos (22:16):

Yes. It's just that caring approach that we have to our clients that we need to then reflect out into the world, you know, for our team and checking in on people is a beautiful way to do that. And then extending that care to ourselves as well. So going, am I okay? Actually, no, I'm not. What's going on for me? What do I need to do about that? How can I take responsibility for changing that with the support of my employer?

Karen Litzy (22:44):

Yeah. Yeah. So again, we go back to having that both internal and external check-in, which seems to be a theme here. Okay. So what other big issues do new graduates face at the moment? So just so people know, we are recording this, it is in the middle of the covid-19 pandemic and there are changes in health systems, changes all around the world. How will new grads be affected by this?

Elizabeth Santos (23:15):

I think there is a level of uncertainty about the impact of covid-19 across the board at the moment. And we can hypothesize that the current situation is going to impact on physiotherapists who are final year students who are graduating out into the world. They're going to be unsure about what's available for them, you know, where they're going to be needed. Certainly clinical placements are going to be impacted. This at the moment, and this is something that I know in Australia we're working really hard on the Australian physiotherapy association as part of their advocacy role, which is wonderful. Just protecting those and making sure that we've got those roles for physiotherapy students and that they're getting all the experience they need because they do need that experience. I think we're going to see some really positive things in terms of the workforce because we're going to see more jobs.

Elizabeth Santos (24:13):

So it's actually a really positive time and a really exciting time to be a new graduate physiotherapists. So if you can look at that and think, you know, we are going to need therapy physiotherapists in key roles in assessment and treatment of injury both in the community, in the hospital setting, helping to increase or facilitate discharge I should say, and making sure that, you know, clients are actually, patients are leaving the hospital system in due course. You know, we really need those beds and the staff to be looking after people who of all walks, you know, they're still going to be in the hospital system, but yet really we need physiotherapists on the frontline as essential workers. We're seeing a huge uptake in telehealth at the moment, which is also really exciting. And that's because of the social distancing policies that are being put in place. Well clinics and hospitals remain open. Some people are still having services in those clinics and in the hospitals, but there is a large movement towards the telehealth sphere. So this is something really exciting that new graduates can learn about and put into their toolkit for use now and into the future as well.

Elizabeth Santos (25:34):

I don't see tele-health going away when social distancing rules are lessened. So I think as a new graduate it is really exciting to be able to have so many options. And because of the pandemic, all of these people who are sick and who are recovering, they're going to need our help. You know, like you said, we are essential and I think that as a new graduate that really at this point, yes, there's a lot of uncertainty but there's uncertainty across the board. But I don't think that new graduates have to be in great despair at the moment. I understand, you know those final year students who like you said, are trying to get their clinical placements, which is all over the place and just graduate for God's sakes are having a lot of stress at the moment. But I agree, I think that physical therapists or physiotherapists are in a unique position here to really show up and be part of the team.

Karen Litzy (26:44):

Earlier you mentioned being part of the team of physicians and nurses and doctors and psychologists. I mean we are going to be an essential part of that team. So hopefully if the research shows that being part of a team helps with burnout, it'll help with our new graduates now.

Elizabeth Santos (27:02):

Absolutely. And there are those vulnerable groups and vulnerable patients who are really going to need the support that physiotherapists have to provide and anyone in the community who's wanting to keep their exercises going and do those online classes and all of those opportunities which are unfolding. It's a great and exciting time to be part of the profession.

Karen Litzy (27:23):

I can't agree more. And now how can new graduate physios keep confident and keep positive? Right now we've said, Hey, it's, you know, it's not like it's a horrible time to be a PT, but how can they keep confident, positive and take care of themselves?

Elizabeth Santos (27:42):

That sense of reassurance I'd like to really impart, you know, just for new graduates to keep taking care of themselves. It's those simple things that they can do, like making sure that they keep their nutrition up and exercise and really try and inspire themselves at the moment and look after themselves and get plenty of sleep and those basic things which are useful for anyone to be honest. Because we all need to be practicing good sleep hygiene, keeping off our phones or having some boundaries around social media and the news and just looking for jobs, getting support with looking for jobs if they're in that phase, reaching out to a mentor, a debriefing if they've just started in a new role this year. So making sure that if things feel overwhelming or if they're unsure that they're asking for help and that they're asking questions and that they're supporting their teammates as well. You know, every country is going through lots of changes and there are some really sad and heartbreaking things happening in the world and we can't look away from those and we can't ignore them, but we can stay still keep moving forward as individuals and as a profession and feel hopeful about the role that we have to play.

Karen Litzy (29:01):

Yeah, I agree. And I think that was very well said. Now Elizabeth, let's talk, can you talk a little bit about the book.

Elizabeth Santos (29:09):

Good, thank you. I am really excited to reach as many new graduate physios who need this reassurance and this support the people who are looking for that sense of comfort or unsure about which role is right for them. So it's a mentor in your pocket style of book, which has an academic undertone. So there's lots of research in there. But then there's some light and funny comics which I had commissioned as well to kind of make it a little bit more enticing read so it wasn't dry because if it's too evidence heavy it can sometimes be hard to sift through. But our physiotherapists are good at that and it's designed to help you navigate all of the tricky areas as a new graduate. So things like negotiating a contract, building therapeutic relationships with clients, how to find the right mentor, how to choose professional development.

Elizabeth Santos (30:11):

So what you should be doing versus what your employer perhaps thinks you should be doing or what you know based on your mission statement I think is a good way to choose. But it also talks about the highs and the lows that you might experience and the mistakes that you'll probably make, which are part and parcel of being a physical therapist and then how to put all of that together and sort of trust the journey as it unfolds and build resilience over time. And it's written in the third person. So as I said in that sort of academic tone, but then there are some simple questions, journal prompts at the end of each chapter that you can workshop as well. And I'm happy to support people through because I think it helps to have that self reflection and actually to write some things down and go, what is working for me and what's not and what am I having trouble with here?

Elizabeth Santos (31:04):

So it's designed to help them kind of workshop and for it to be a little bit like a Bible for that first year or two. So if they have a really rough day, they can actually go home and flick it open to that chapter and go, okay, what happened here? What could I do differently? How could I learn from perhaps some of the mistakes that are talked about in the book, you know, and how can I integrate this and move forward and get the best outcome for myself and for the client, for the practice, for the team if I'm in a hospital or wherever I might be.

Karen Litzy (31:37):

Nice. So it's more than just a once read and done. You can go back to it and kind of use the tools in the book over and over again, which I think is great. And just for all the listeners for a limited time, Elizabeth is offering a 10% discount on her book when you use the code HWSpodcast at checkout. And we'll have her website, which is over at and we'll splash it across social media. So we'll make it really, really easy to do this. So again the discount code is HWSpodcast. So Elizabeth, I've asked the same question to everyone at the end of each interview and I feel like in this particular episode it is the perfect question to end with. And that is knowing where you are now in your life and in your career, what advice would you give to yourself as a new grad?

Elizabeth Santos (32:37):

It's a lovely question. Funnily enough, I taught to my younger self a lot when I wrote this book because I needed her insights and I needed her stories and she had a lot of wisdom to share, which I wove through the book. And it wasn't just my experiences, it was all of the experiences of all the physiotherapists I'd ever known and spoken to. So it was a real collective of wisdom and inspiration that went into the book. And I'm grateful for that. And it's a nice moment to thank all of those people who were part of it in some way because it's created a meaningful resource. But if I could go back to 2006 I would say congratulations. And I know how excited I was at that time. And I would probably say straight up, listen, you're going to make some mistakes, you're going to make a lot of mistakes and you're going to really want to beat yourself up about those.

Elizabeth Santos (33:38):

And you're going to question the choices you've made in therapy and in your career. And you won't know if you made the right choice, but you'll have to back yourself and you'll have to know that you are enough and you have got a lot of knowledge to share. And you know, it's student experiences and it's life experience as well. So I always encourage new graduates to really draw on everything they have and know that they're always going to be in some small way, the expert in the room, you know, even if you think you don't know anything you actually do and you can draw on, okay. That strength and that knowledge in those moments. But I'd also really offer some words of comfort because it's hard to know if you're doing the right thing and it's hard to know if you've made those right choices.

Elizabeth Santos (34:30):

I'd tell myself to take some regular holidays too because I know I didn't do that enough in my first couple of years, so yeah, but just knowing that you can inspire others and that you can inspire yourself is probably the biggest and yeah, it's a really exciting time for all the physios out there and I hope that they can find some inspiration in this podcast and in these answers.


Karen Litzy:

Thank you. I'm sure they will. And now, Elizabeth, where can people find you on social media?


Elizabeth Santos:

So on social media, they can find me at whole living with Elizabeth Santos, which is my Facebook page, but the website, probably has the most amount of resources and it has links to my new graduate mentoring and people can connect with me through email that way. And I do actually have a free chapter of the book available. If you want to jump on the email, you can do that and I'll send you a chapter to read and get a bit of a feel for what the book's about.

Karen Litzy (35:38):

Perfect. Well thank you so much. This was great and I just know that I think it will give new graduates inspiration. I think it will give new graduates a sense of comfort and of confidence as they go out into the world. So thank you so much Elizabeth. This was great. And to everyone listening, thank you so much. Have a great couple of days and stay healthy, wealthy, and smart.


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May 5, 2020

In this episode of the Healthy, Wealthy and Smart Podcast, I welcome Jason Van Orden on the show to discuss personal branding strategies. Jason helps thought leaders to reach a larger audience with their ideas, create new income streams from their expertise, and build business models that align with their values and goals. As a consultant, trainer, and strategist, he draws from more than fourteen years of researching top Internet influencers and experimenting with his own personal experience. His experience includes creating multiple successful brands, launching over 60 online courses, teaching more than 10,000 entrepreneurs, generating seven figures in online course sales, and 8 million downloads of his podcast. His mission is to help visionaries with impactful ideas to connect with the people they serve best and the problems they can most uniquely solve.

In this episode, we discuss:

-Three keys to good brand positioning

-How to overcome imposter syndrome and position yourself as an expert

-The magnetic messaging framework

-The compounding effect of your impact on the world

-And so much more!



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For more information on Jason:

Since 2005, Jason has worked with over 6000 students and clients, teaching them how to monetize their unique brilliance with content marketing, scalable courses, and automated sales systems. Many of his and students have built multi-million dollar businesses and have become top authors, bloggers, podcasters, and speakers in their field.

In September of 2005, Jason co-founded the first ever podcast about internet business and online marketing. It quickly became one of the top business podcasts in the world. To this day it’s one of the most profitable podcasts on iTunes — having generated millions of dollars in sales directly from his podcast.

Jason has spoken around the world at some of the biggest conferences (such as CES, National Association of Broadcasters, New Media Expo, and many others) teaching how to use Internet media to launch and grow influential personal brands. In 2006, he wrote the bestselling book, Promoting Your Podcast, in which he was the first to “crack the code” for optimizing podcasts to get maximum exposure on iTunes. His work has been used to teach marketing at the university level and has been referenced on sites such as and He also practices what he preaches, having created world-class, influential brands of his own.


Read the full transcript below:

Karen Litzy (00:01):

Hey Jason, welcome to the podcast. I am so happy to have you on today.

Jason Van Orden (00:05):

Well it's great to be here. Karen, thank you so much for having me.

Karen Litzy (00:08):

Yes, and as you know, I've been a fan of yours for a while and as my audience knows, I actually took your course on how to kind of juice up your podcast last year and I thought it was super helpful. So I want to thank you for that and I sort of raved about it to my fans on social media and here in the podcast. So it's such a, it's going to be so great to have you on today. So, yeah, thanks. And today we're going to be talking about if creating an irresistible brand and then once you have that brand, how do you create sources of income? Because of course we all want to make a living, we all want to help as many people as we can while we're doing it. But the first question I have for you is, what is your definition of a irresistible brand?

Jason Van Orden (01:04):

Sure, yeah. Good question. So in the work that I do, you know, I work with people who have expertise that they want to get out there in a bigger way and you know, some kind of message, some kind of stories. So you know, they really want to be recognized or known or even just increase their own ability to help and impact and reach people with what they do. So just to let people know, I'll be talking mostly in the vein of what a personal brand is. I know sometimes we would hear a brand and we think like Coca Cola or AT and T and certainly there are much bigger brand companies as well, but we also don't want to confuse it with brand identity like logos and like your letter head. And certainly, you know, those are assets that get used in order to maybe establish a recognition of a brand.

Jason Van Orden (01:49):

But really, yeah, what we'll be talking about and how I define as much more about like how are you perceived in the marketplace, especially by those that you want to reach and do business with you, you know, the people that you want to serve and that you want to perk up, pay attention, and listen when you've got something cool to share or sell or you know, offer as help. So, it has to do with, you know, them seeing, you know, here's who you are, here's what you do, here's who you help and here's what you have to offer to them. And hopefully those perceptions are accurate and complete and compelling so that you successfully can get their attention and move them towards doing business with you. So that's kind of an in brief how I would make some of the specifications of the word brand to make sure that we're clear about what we're talking about.

Karen Litzy (02:38):

Yeah. And I think that's really helpful because I think you're exactly right. When people think of brands, they do think of those big international, huge brands, like you said, Coca-Cola, Nike, Apple, which is certainly a brand. But I think for the sake of the audience listening to this, they want to know about that more personal brand identity that you were talking about. So let's talk about how to create that. So how do you create this sort of irresistible brand that you want your ideal customers, you want to be perceived as something that is so necessary for them. How do you create that?

Jason Van Orden (03:21):

So yeah, there are three pieces to having a good brand positioning. And, and by position, I mean, again, establishing that place in the marketplace that you want to sit. And so the first is to know like, okay, well here's who I ideally want to reach and serve and being very clear about that. I mean, there's an example I use for instance, digital photography is, I have a recently a client I was working with, who wanted, you know, a successful digital photographer wanted to get out there and help other digital photographers. You know, had great career, great clients and projects and things, and he knew there are a lot of people who kind of knew his work and wanted to be, do some of what he had been able to accomplish. And so, you know, I was like, okay, great.

Jason Van Orden (04:09):

I want to build up my brand more and not just you know, do this. This work where I got hired to go and do thermography and digital photography. And so I said, well, we need to get very clear about who do you want to help with these skills. Is it the already established professional? Is it the somebody who wants to make that jump now to being a professional, you know, they've studied and they've, you know, pretty serious hobbyist or something. Or do you want to help people who just have an iPhone and wanting to take more beautiful pictures with their iPhone? Like these are all different audiences, but under that umbrella of digital photography. So it's being very clear. And sometimes that's specifying a specific demographic though it needs to go. I think even in much, much deeper than that.

Jason Van Orden (04:51):

And you know, are there certain age groups, but the biggest thing to really understand is what are the outcomes or results that you want to help them to reach? I think it's really important to define the target customer, the intended customer in that way. Because when it comes down to it, I mean their age and their gender or these different things might help you if you're running ads and want to know where to reach them. But really ultimately the way you want to define them as it's like, Oh, these are their unfulfilled needs. These are what are the things they're actively looking for. These are the pains they're experiencing or the goals that they haven't met that they would like to meet. And those are the things that I can help them with, which is the second piece.

Jason Van Orden (05:35):

Once you know the ideal customer that you want to reach and serve, the second piece is, Okay, well how do you want to serve them? What are you going to deliver if you are there specific ones of their pains that you want to help them with or the unfulfilled goals that you want to help them with. And we call that, you know, the value proposition or the thing that you are presenting to them, whether, you know, and might be as services or products or other things we can get. It's a into that later. But so it's who are you serving, how are you going to serve them? And then there's also this third piece that's just who you are. And particularly in the work that I do and helping people with their personal branding there's a lot of noise on the internet and it can feel sometimes if you are somebody who ever does post on Facebook or put something out there and maybe you're hoping people might see it, it's easy to feel like, Oh, that's just going to get lost in this sea of sameness.

Jason Van Orden (06:31):

And so many people saying different things or the same seemingly the same things. And it's knowing that as tried as this might sound, you know, we each have our unique perspective, our unique approach, the experiences we've been through. We have our you know, our approach to things to bring to the table. And in the same way, here's my vision for people who want to have a personal brand is that in the same way that Spotify now has really trained us to be able to find whatever we want to listen to. I mean, whatever genre, whatever into your popular music like you can, there's a vast catalog and now it's not about what 100 CDs you own. It's like now you like near infinite choice. And so you have these very personalized playlist and stuff and Spotify is insanely good at them.

Jason Van Orden (07:19):

Making recommendations for us as well in that same way, be thanks to the internet over the last 10, 15 years, all the other myriad of problems and populations who need help out there and in solving and guidance, you know, there's a slice of the world that's looking for your approach, for your flavor. You are that hidden gem of a band on Spotify, quote unquote, right. So it's something about the way you show up and make them feel they're present the information or guide them or the values you have or some kind of shared meaning or something where you know, you seem a lot like they, you know, you've been in the place that they have in the past and they resonate with that. So that's the third piece of the personal brand is knowing what you bring to the table in those ways.

Jason Van Orden (08:06):

And it just really owning and realizing that you do have that perspective that many people will want to specifically hear from you.


Karen Litzy:

Okay. Wow. Okay. So I am going to recap that really quickly. So first you're where you want to be clear about who you want to serve. Then you want to be clear on how you're going to serve them. And then who are you and what do you bring to the table? I mean these are, I feel like number one kind of getting clear about who you want to serve. I don't know for me that's probably the easiest of the three. But getting, I think drilling down to who are you and what do you bring to the table that can be kind of difficult to pull out of yourself. Do you have any tips for the listeners on how they might be able to do that?

Jason Van Orden (09:04):

Absolutely. For me, I'm being totally selfish, absolutely not a problem. It can be hard to uncover those things. And one of the reasons why is that we often don't see what is interesting or special or valuable because it's commonplace to us and you know, and then just get old human nature. We haven't yet imposture syndrome or just feel like, Oh to like, you know, say, Oh, I'm strong in this area. Just feels not humble or something. So, you know, these things get in our way of seeing what we have to offer. And so in the work that I do, I have a lot of exercises and frameworks and things that I walk clients through to help them uncover and discover the different parts of their voice and that we're talking about. So I'll just drill into to one area here that I think is really important.

Jason Van Orden (09:53):

Like I said, very noisy on the internet, but if you can get this, this sense of resonance resonances, you know, if you've ever you know, maybe you've been seeing it in the shower or something happened, just hear it just the right note and it's just like, Ooh, it just gets really big. And because you hit just that right note that in that space sounds really big and that's what you want when somebody comes across you and your message. So here's a little framework in my research about personal branding, I've seen a lot of work. I've seen a lot of research I've done out there about the importance of purpose based brands. And when I say that I'm talking about companies like whole foods or Patagonia, there's a very specific identity. They stand for certain things. They have a certain vision of the future.

Jason Van Orden (10:38):

They guide their company according to that. Their messaging community, certain things in a very clear and compelling way. And that's just two of many examples I could go to. And the research is clear that that leads to more loyal customers, repeat customers, you know, fans and advocates that share your stuff with other people. And this is what consumers want today. Thank goodness. You know, I think 10, 15 years of some really just like shenanigans in the corporate world, not only I dimension, just upcoming generation of millennials, that purpose based stuff has gotten really, really important. So what does that mean for you? How can you you know, if you're feeling driven by all this, you probably do have some kind of purpose inside you. But what does that even mean to like clarify and communicate that? So here's a little framework that I have.

Jason Van Orden (11:23):

I went and I study kind of the work I've done helping build personal brands as well as some of these companies and what they do. And I came up with five elements. I'll just briefly go through, I call this the magnetic messaging framework and it is one of many facets he can pull up to really find that uniqueness about you. So first thing is beliefs. What do you believe at the core that drives the core of the work that you do? What do you believe about the world? What do you believe that maybe goes counter to what is popular, you know, wisdom in your industry. What do you want the people that you want to reach and serve? What do you want them to believe after they've worked with you or come across, you know, your offerings, what do you want them to believe about themselves and about the world?

Jason Van Orden (12:04):

So I'll just use myself as a quick example here. I have this belief that we do need more people out there building that personal brand, rising up and owning it and going and finding that slice of the world that they can help. And if we can have a ground swell of that will solve a lot more of the world's problems than if we were just to leave it to, you know, big corporations, big organizations, government, whatever. I mean, Hey, they have their part to plead to. But this is a wonderful opportunity the internet has given us. And that's a belief that I have one of many that drive my work. Second of all, vision, what is the vision you have of the future? I'm not talking about just a vision statement for your business and all that might be important, but paint a picture like this is the future I want to see and work for and create.

Jason Van Orden (12:44):

I'll give you an example from another woman that I was coaching where she is in the health. And actually she was in the dieting, you know, what you'd call even the dieting industry and she has as a recently in last couple of years, stop using that word at all. She came across some research and things. She said, that's it. I gotta stop talking about dieting when it comes to the women I'm working with, you know, with helping them love their bodies and different things. And, you know, she decided I have to take a completely different approach and she now believes it has this vision of the future where like we get rid of the dieting industry or that world, it may seem like a huge daunting task, which is like, we absolutely need to take that down. It is not serving us well.

Jason Van Orden (13:22):

So that's, you know, a big vision thing. It's bigger than her. And when people do business with her, they are, they also see themselves as being a part of that and people want to be part of something bigger. Again, going back to companies like Patagonia or whole foods, there is a certain vision you know, Patagonia is all about like the sustainable future, right? So what does that vision you want to create? So beliefs and vision, value, we always talk already talked about it a little bit as being very clear about what you offer to them, what's in it for them if they do business for you. The fourth thing is contribution. So what do you bring? What does your work do that goes beyond the monetary exchange and the value exchange with your customer. I mean, that's important and they pay you and you render a service or give them the product or whatever the case may be.

Jason Van Orden (14:04):

But how does that contribute to the community or the industry or even the world at large? And I'd like to think that in the work that I do helping elevate all of these thought leaders that it contributes in that will solve more of the world's problems. I mean, I'm not claiming that myself, I can go in and help enough people to solve all the world's problems, but I'll make more of the dent if I help more people find with their ideas and their expertise, the people in the problems in the populations they can help the most. And so that's how I see my work contributing even beyond what it does for directly to my icons, my customers. And then the final thing is a reason why you do what you do other than making money. And for me, once I was one simple example is I see it as a compounding of my own impact and specifically working with people who want to have a personal brand and be a thought leader or get their ideas and things out there in a bigger way.

Jason Van Orden (14:58):

It's like, well, Hey, it's like compound interest. I help you know, a person they go help 10 or a hundred or a thousand. Then I helped another person and they help 10 or a hundred or thousand. And so that's a reason why I do what I do besides money or the freedom directly benefiting to me. So those five things, beliefs, vision, value, contribution, and reason why, if you flesh those things out and then talk about them in your content and your keynote speeches with your clients in your marketing, in your say on your website, on your about page, on your social media, now you're going to be creating something that really has a uniqueness around it. And that's one key way to do that.

Karen Litzy (15:35):

That was great. Thank you so much. And I really loved that end piece. How you finished on that? That concept of compound interest. Yeah. Because oftentimes we don't think about what we do as effecting the, we kind of only think about it as I am working with a patient and I make a difference in that patient's life. Right? But I'm not thinking that because I made a difference in this patient's life. They were able to make a difference in their children or their parents or their friends or their family because they're going out and doing what they're meant to do because I help them do that.

Karen Litzy (16:18):

And I just, yeah, I just, I love that concept and I don't think I've heard it really put quite that way before. And I think it's just wonderful to think about it that way so that when, cause oftentimes as healthcare providers we can be a little shy, I guess it could be the word or uncomfortable with asking for monetary exchange for what we do. Right, right. And yeah, a lot of times, especially in healthcare, you're tied to that insurance system where, you know, you're waiting for the insurance to pay you or you could have a cash based business where the patient pays you directly. But so often there's this shyness or this inability to kind of ask for that monetary contribution. And I think people get so fixated on that that you forget about all the other stuff that you're doing. That sort of compound interest that you said goes beyond that monetary amount. Because I think if people see that, then the monetary amount, yes, we need to make a living, but people will be like, yeah, sure, here you go. I get it.

Jason Van Orden (17:33):

Yeah. Right. And when they understand yeah, and it definitely comes across again, by the time they do business with you, with this kind of messaging. Yeah. People, not only are they just like identified with you and like, no, I want, I want you, I want to be the one to help me. But yeah, they understand that and whether it's conscious or unconscious and says, yeah, this idea of like, Oh, I'm also part of something a little bigger than me here. This is cool. You know? And that's what people want these days.

Karen Litzy (17:59):

Yeah, absolutely. Well, now let's say we fast forward. We have gone through that framework. We feel like we have a good solid footing on what our brand is and our messaging. So let's step into now how to create sources of income from that messaging. And that messaging, of course, is using our expertise.

Jason Van Orden (18:28):

Yeah. So when it comes to creating different sources of income, there's one key asset to be very clear with. And then I can share another four-part framework. I'm big fan of frameworks and we've actually covered some of the pieces of that framework which are being very clear. So there's four pieces to coming up with some kind of offer. When I say offer, it could be a service, it could be a product, you know, something that you're offering to people to buy and exchange value with you. So the first piece is well, we already talked about knowing very clearly who your ideal audience, customer client is. And then the second piece is being very clear about understanding the outcomes and the results and the unfulfilled needs. What's most important to them, what's top of mind? What is their, what I call their tooth ache, pain and other, they literally have a two thing.

Jason Van Orden (19:18):

But I use that as an example because if we have a tooth ache and it's not going away, we're going to call the dentist and go get it checked out. Right? It suddenly becomes a top of mind thing. So how do you know what that is? Well, you go when you talk to them. I'm always encouraging my clients to go and do market research in the form of having conversations with people who fit the description of their ideal person, the person that they want to reach. And this could be current clients or past clients are also just people who aren't, haven't done business with them. But you know, for you, Karen could be listeners of your podcast or people who are on your email newsletter list and you know if you regularly get on the phone with them and it's not to say like, Hey, I have this idea for a product.

Jason Van Orden (19:59):

What do you think? It's really to listen a lot and ask good questions to hear about their experience. You know, what are they dealing with? What are they trying to accomplish? Why haven't they reached that? That's the big thing is why haven't they been able to do that thing that they want to do yet? What myths and misconceptions are they maybe dealing with? What questions do they have? What's not? What knowledge gaps, what tools do they need to acquire, what have they tried before that maybe didn't work for them? So you know, the better you understand their experience in this way, then you as the expert can, you'll see the through lines, the thread that draws the jury, that ties these conversations together. And you can kind of like read the tea leaves so to speak and go, Oh, okay, I'm seeing something that's missing here.

Jason Van Orden (20:36):

Or something that I think that I could do in a particularly helpful way. And then at that point, you've got, you know, those first two key components, your ideal customer and their ideal thing that's really important to them. And that's, we're going to come up with a great, a great offer. Now to get a little more specific at that point, you as the expert have some kind of process and this is the third piece, some kind of process for helping them get from a to B. You know, so if you're a physical therapist, I mean, I, I'm not claiming to know that much about physical therapy, right? But like I've done some before. I had a knee injury and then you need to get some range of motion back. Right? So the third, the physical therapist I went to see, you know, immediately, you know, it was assessing and everything and then in her mind was, you know, going, okay, yeah, here are the things we're going to need to do to do over the next several weeks.

Jason Van Orden (21:25):

Then a process to bring that to bring that about. I have a certain process that I go through to help my clients, you know, figure out what their personal brand is or you know, create and launch their first online pro, you know, I different. And so if you're very clear about what that process is and particularly kind of your unique approach to it, again, going back to what's unique about what you offer that process now is something that you can wrap in a variety of what I call experiences, which is the fourth piece. So we have the ideal client or customer, we have their ideal outcome. We have your process for helping them reach that outcome. And now it's just a matter of wrapping it in different experiences. Now, here's what I mean by that. If we imagine a spectrum and on one end of the spectrum is kind of your, what I call your high end high high touch offers.

Jason Van Orden (22:13):

So that would be, you know, as a physical therapist, the hands on one-on-one work as a consultant, as a coach showing up one-on-one or the, you know, so it's much more nuanced and direct and people are going to pay more for that kind of experience and expertise on the other end of the spectrum with clients that I work with is something that would be like purely hands off. Something like a digital course for instance, that you know, somebody can buy the so, you know, say I went online and I'm sure there's a lot of physical therapists can be like, Whoa, bad idea. You need to actually go to a physical therapist and understand that maybe you know, putting aside my ignorance about all of the physical therapy, you know, maybe then as a thing, after they worked with you for several weeks or whatever, there's some, you know, downloadable set of videos that then they can go through on their own at home or you know, whatever it is that you're wanting to help people with.

Jason Van Orden (23:02):

So that's at the other end of the spectrum, purely digital do it themselves. And then there's everything in between and you're basically asking yourself three questions. It's like, okay, how are people going to get access to me through this offer? And so, you know, is that going to be direct one on one? Is it going to be, maybe there's some kind of, you know, a lot of my clients end up performing some kind of like group Q and a or coaching calls, whether they can help a group of people at once. It's kind of like, you know, your Lyft or Uber share ride. If the driver has three people in the car, they're getting paid by three people as opposed to one person. Right? So that's a, you know, how do they get access to you and finding a more scalable way to do that.

Jason Van Orden (23:38):

The second thing is how do they get access to the information? And that might be, you know, through like you did that podcasting course. I did that, the information, there was a series of group calls, several people on a call and I was doing those trainings and then saying, here's where you can walk away now and the action steps and what to do next this week with what we've talked about. So how do they access the information or the knowledge or the tools? And then the third question is how do they access each other? And this is a powerful thing and wrapping in an experience. Because if you have a lot of people showing up, have similar goals and desires, it's actually you really valuable for them to be a part of a group of people who are working towards similar things and normalizes, you know, the issues that they're dealing with.

Jason Van Orden (24:22):

And they can get insights from others who are in the same place as they are. And this is where we see things like Facebook groups or LinkedIn groups or Slack you know, channels or ways that your clients can actually talk to each other, which again, it's huge value without your direct input. Other than that you connected them. So when you have those four pieces, the ideal client, their ideal outcome, your process for getting them there and then deciding of what is the experience, you know, now you can craft. And the cool thing about knowing clearly what that process is and maybe take that first piece of the process that's like an assessment piece or whatever the first step is. And you can make that a smaller product and make it lower price. So it's easy for people to go like, okay, yeah, I'll say yes.

Jason Van Orden (25:04):

Did that baby step into doing work? You know, or experiencing your expertise in some way. And then all the research tells us they're likely that way. More likely now to do business with you again and spend more money with you at that point. Or maybe you decide it's time to write a book. Okay. The book is maybe an overview of your process or you get invited to do a keynote. It's like, okay, there's, well here's one slice of my process, one, one, one piece of what I help people with. And that can be the basis for that for that keynote. Or maybe you decide, okay, now I want the entire process packaged up as a group coaching type experience that happens over eight weeks online or a two day workshop or right now you can, you can play with it in a lot of different ways, but that process is a really important asset. So those are your four steps and kind of how all those pieces come together.

Karen Litzy (25:51):

Awesome. Well, I love a good framework. So thank you for that. And there's one thing that you said as you are kind of going through that framework that I just want to back up and touch upon is that idea of being an expert. So oftentimes, and again, you touched upon this as well, is that feeling of imposter syndrome and things like that. Is that feeling of, am I really the expert? Like there are people out there who might have more experience than I do. How can I put myself out there as the expert? So what do you say to that?

Jason Van Orden (26:29):

Well, there probably are plenty of people out there who have more expertise than you. There always will be there. People have there have more expertise or experience in marketing branding to me. But again, it goes, there are too for people to do business with you. It's about trust. And trust is actually made of two components. It's made of credibility, which, you know, that's expertise. Have you, you know, done the hours of mastery. You've gotten the degree if you need it or whatever. It goes into that credibility. Have you gotten results for people before? And we lean on that a lot and that's okay. It is important. But then likability, credibility plus likability is trust. And often that likability is even more important than the credibility. Now again, you need to be able to deliver the results, but what does that likability, well, that goes back to resonance and for some reason, I mean, I think we've all, you know, I could have gone to one physical therapist and been like, yeah, something just doesn't drive here.

Jason Van Orden (27:16):

I need to go to another whatever for whatever reason. Right? And at that point, it wouldn't have been like, which one has more experience? It's like, which one do I vibe with? Or if you've ever gone to like hired a therapist or something like that, right? Just to kind of give a little more of an extreme example. But so that's one thing I would say. Another thing is that you know, if you do struggle with impostor syndrome, a great Google search to do is imposter syndrome celebrities. And you're gonna see a huge list of like Tina Fey and Tom Hanks and Maya Angelou and people who are like stories. Like, why are these people like doubting themselves? They're like, amazing. Then another thing that I would say to that is, you know, that process of going and having those conversations with your marketplace, those can be very energizing and actually confidence boosting.

Jason Van Orden (28:04):

Cause as you're talking and hearing their experience, it starts, you start going seeing it's like, Oh yeah, I can help with that and start getting excited about it and wanting to do it. And so that's another, you know, little anecdote to that. And in the end it's, you know, you don't ever have to be claimed to be something that you're not, you know, you very clear and you know, again, what your strengths are, where you can create results to what extent, and there are going to be people that just decide to work with you for a number of reasons. And it's not just going to be price or geography. Sometimes it might be, but again, if you know, that resonance piece comes in a lot too. So there's a few different things. And then the last thing is all I can say is like, go back to my belief that it's like, look, there's so many people in this world, 8 billion plus lots of problems to solve. Lots of people looking for guidance and help. So, you know, be that one specific band on Spotify, be that one person that knows that slice of the world is looking for. I'm going, you know what, you're the person I've been waiting for to hear this from. So how can I work with you? And that's what we're going for.

Karen Litzy (29:08):

Perfect. I love it. Now as we wrap things up here if you could leave the audience, although I think what you just said was probably, I shouldn't have even asked this question, but I'm going to ask it anyway because I want you to be able to kind of give the major points you want people to walk away with from this conversation, even though there were so, so many, I took a lot of notes.

Jason Van Orden (29:34):

Yeah. I mean, I'll just punctuate kind of the big point. And, and with just a very brief anecdote or story, and that is like back in 2008, I got a phone call from a woman in Austin, Texas. She had a child, she was pregnant or no, she had two kids at the time. And she, both of her pregnancies had been very high risk. In fact, she had gotten put on bed rest, you know, or you have to stay there for months and I'm sure that's gotta be so stressful. And it was a really difficult time for her. She from the African American community and she just found that particularly in that population, the resources for high risk pregnancies were really under like the date. There just wasn't enough of them. So, you know, fast forward, she's got her two healthy kids, thank goodness everything.

Jason Van Orden (30:19):

And she's like, I want, I need to share my experience and my story, you know, she's even gotten, you know, gone and gotten some what's the word I'm looking for, you know, accreditations or even, I can't remember exactly what she, you know, went and trained in, but she definitely got some that credibility expertise part, but then she also wanted to share her story. And so she said, can you help me launch a podcast? I said, yes, absolutely. So she hired me to coach her and consult her through that. And you know, fast forward a few months, or maybe it was a half a year or so, and she started getting emails from people in Ireland and Australia and Oman in the middle East. And you know, this one woman and in Oman said look, I gotta thank you for helping. Like save my child.

Jason Van Orden (31:04):

I hadn't, no, when I found out that I had to be on bed rest and there was this high risk of losing my pregnancy, like I didn't know what to do and where I live, there really isn't like what much support or empathy and so your story, your podcast, your perspective, your expertise gave me the strength, the will, the knowledge to be able to get through that difficult time. So what I'm trying to punctuate there is like how many of those connections are waiting for you out there, the listener, you know, who's listening to this right now and whether you reach them through a podcast or a blog or videos or through social media or speaking or whatever the case may be. There are absolutely those stories. You know, that that story can be true of you. And that's why I do what I do is to multiply that phenomenon that I've seen time and time and time again over the last 10 or 15 years.

Karen Litzy (31:54):

Yeah, I mean you just, you never know who's listening or reading or watching and you never know how the words that you say can truly, truly affect another person. And that's a great exit story is a great example of that.

Jason Van Orden (32:10):

And I don't know if you can hear a little bit of music, Karen? But somebody is having a dance party with their car suddenly. So that's not just me like, you know, winding down our interview with like, I'm going to do a saucer.

Karen Litzy (32:21):

You're in a play, you're going to play yourself off at the Oscars. Just slowly playing yourself off. That's so thoughtful. Well, actually before you exit, I have one last question. So I ask everyone this, knowing where you are now, in your life and in your career, what advice would you give to yourself as that young guy straight out of school?

Jason Van Orden (32:49):

Yeah. Well wow, that's a big one. I mean, I think what I would say is that, you know, you're only scratching the surface when it comes to what's possible for you and especially in getting to know yourself. So just, you know, keep searching, keep looking, keep discovering and uncovering the layers of yourself. And because, you know, that guy thought he was going to be an engineer for the rest of his life and so many other, I'm such a different person now and that's good. I mean a lot of growth and hard things and went very different directions than I thought, but it would just be that encouragement. It's like, look, you're just getting started and thinking is going to be very different. But you know, keep, keep digging and hoping and pushing and even when it gets hard.

Karen Litzy (33:35):

Great advice. Thank you so much. Now Jason, where can people find you?

Jason Van Orden (33:40):

Yeah, so I actually have a new podcast where we dive into stuff like this. It's a podcast called impact, a subtitle, how to build or how to grow your thought leadership brand and business. And so you can check that out and find it on all the major directories or at And then the one other thing I'll mention is if you go to, you can download, you know, I went very quickly through those five aspects of the messaging, but you can download the framework, it's like a full guide with questions. Take you through that and if you want to dig into that exercise some more. So that's

Karen Litzy (34:20):

Awesome. Well thank you so much. And just for everyone listening, we'll have the links to everything that Jason just said. So his podcast, his website and the magnetic messaging over at the show notes for this episode at So if you weren't taking notes like I did, don't worry one click and we'll take you to everything that Jason just mentioned. So Jason, thank you so much for taking the time out and coming on the podcast. I really appreciate it. This was great.

Jason Van Orden (34:50):

Yeah, so much fun. Thank you Karen

Karen Litzy (34:52):

And everyone else. Thanks so much for listening. Have a great couple of days and stay healthy, wealthy, and smart.


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